O8 shorthanded situation for review

[joker1976]

I don't know if there's anyone feeling the same as I do, it seems that I give back all my winnings on shorthanded flop play. I normally do very well in games where 4 or 5 players see the flop, but horribly in 3 way preflop raised pot. Here are two examples, I'd appreciate any comment.

Hand 1:

hero on blind with Ac 3c Js 5s, fold to cutoff who limps, button raise, sb fold, hero call. Button is an aggressive player, once raised flop A Q K with A 2 4 T no flush draw multiple way.

flop: Ad Jh 9h

hero check, cutoff check, button bet, hero raise, cutoff fold, button reraise, hero call

Turn: 4h

hero check, button bet, hero call

River: Th

hero check, button bet, hero call

Result in white:
<font color="white"> button won with As Kh 6d 2h </font>

On the river, I know that my hand is most likely dead, but the pot contains 9 bb and opponent is a very aggressive player, he will probably bet with about anything, hoping to buy the pot.

Hand 2:

table is shorthanded with six players. Hero UTG with Ac 3c 6h Kh. hero raise, mid player call, cutoff reraise, all fold, hero call, mid player call.

flop: 4h 6s 9c
hero check, mid check, cutoff bet, hero raise, mid call, cutoff reraise, hero call, mid call.

turn: Jd

hero check, mid check, cutoff bet, hero call, mid call

river: 9d

hero check, mid check, cutoff bet, hero fold, mid call

result in white:
<font color="white">
Mid: Ad 2h Kd Jc (winner pair of jack)
cutoff: As 3s 5s Ts
</font>

comments please.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
hero on blind with Ac 3c Js 5s, fold to cutoff who limps, button raise, sb fold, hero call. Button is an aggressive player, once raised flop A Q K with A 2 4 T no flush draw multiple way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joker - One can make a good case for re-raising with your hand in a short-handed game. I think you should re-raise more often than call, but sometimes call. But the pre-flop call is all right here as a sometimes play , as a mixing it up type play.

[ QUOTE ]
flop: Ad Jh 9h

hero check, cutoff check, button bet, hero raise,

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. Do you want to send Button a message to not always bet behind you after you check? Is that your reason for check-raising? .... Might work.

[ QUOTE ]
cutoff fold, button reraise, hero call

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Hmm. I guess Button didn't get the message. Or maybe Button has something this time. Button seems to be representing a set of aces, maybe with a heart re-draw. Does Button really have a set of aces with a heart re-draw? Hard to say at this point. (There are some other good possibilities - see below).

I much favor taking the initiative and betting flopped top two pair straightforwardly from blind when short handed. I think you need a set of aces yourself to check-raise. With a set of aces yourself, then you would probably re-re-raise after Button re-raises. (When you don't re-re-raise, it doesn't look much as though you have a set of aces). The way it is, Button still backs you down and stays in control of the betting.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: 4h

hero check, button bet, hero call

[/ QUOTE ]

So now you've been relegated to stubbornly chasing. And now a heart flush is possible - and Button is representing that he has it.

[ QUOTE ]
River: Th

hero check, button bet, hero call

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Yeah. Now you're stuck. That's exacly how it happens when you bet two pair after the flop and someone plays back at you, especially if there was a pre-flop raise. Ugly.

Oh well, if Button is bluffing, you're going to show him he can't get away with it this time.

Not a good place for you to be - and you know it.

Once you only call Button's re-raise on the flop, you're chasing. When you start chasing with only four outs, I think you have to look ahead and consider what it will cost you to chase all the rest of the way. It goes against the grain to have an overly aggressive player constantly steal the pot from you, but you have to either do enough stealing yourself to make up for it or find another game. If you look ahead and consider the total cost to chase each betting round, chasing after the flop with only four outs, especially in a short-handed game, is a poor option.

[ QUOTE ]
Result in white:
button won with As Kh 6d 2h

On the river, I know that my hand is most likely dead, but the pot contains 9 bb and opponent is a very aggressive player, he will probably bet with about anything, hoping to buy the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This time Button has a very strong starting hand for short-handed play. Button has a clear bet after you check the flop. I don't know about the re-raise after you check-raise. (1) Maybe it's part of a "I'm fearless - Don't mess with me" image Button wants to project. (2) Or maybe Button really is fearless. (3) If in Button's shoes, I might re-raise here to find out if you really have a set of aces or not. Your limp to my re-raise would indicate you didn't.

At any rate, you're chasing on this hand because of Button's bluffing on other hands. When you call the raise before the flop, you're saying "I don't believe you, Button." When you call the re-raise after the flop, you're saying "I don't believe you, Button." When you call the bet after the turn, you're saying "I don't believe you, Button." When you call the bet on the river, you're saying "I don't believe you, Button."

I think Button probably gets your message and is delighted that you keep sending it.

IMHO, Button is clearly out-playing you. Happens to me sometimes too - and it's not any fun when it happens. I don't think it's a matter of Button being a better Omaha-8 player or a better poker player than you - just a combination of circumstances. When it happens to me, I always think I can turn it around - but then all too often I somehow don't manage to turn it around.

I don't know about you, but if this happened to me, I'd be "psyched out" here. It's hard for me to stuff my ego - but I think the best thing is to leave the game and seek greener pastures elsewhere when it happens to me. At least consider taking as long a break as you can from the table when it happens to you.

Sometimes moving my seat seems to make a difference. I may have difficulty playing with a particular person seated to my left (because of the playing style of that person) - but across the table from that person I may do well. It's not the luck of the seat. (I don't believe in that stuff). It's how well you cope with a particular style depending on your seating position relative to that style.

Lastly, Don Condit seems to thrive at short handed tables, but no one else I know does. My casino experience is there's a steady stream of money that is raked down the slot - with the end result that all the players lose and only the casino makes money. In private games with no rake, I think you want to have a very aggressive style to have an expectation of doing well - perhaps a style similar to Button's here. Omaha-8 is quite a different game, short-handed.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
table is shorthanded with six players. Hero UTG with Ac 3c 6h Kh. hero raise, mid player call, cutoff reraise, all fold, hero call, mid player call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joker - Six players is not exactly short handed. Your play should not be much different from your play in a full game.

My first impression is this is a very aggressive and tight table. Your play seems fine at this point.

[ QUOTE ]
flop: 4h 6s 9c
hero check, mid check, cutoff bet, hero raise,...

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Yikes!!! You missed the damned flop! You're check-raising??? Wow!

There are almost 1000 different possible two-card combinations for the turn/river. Two running, non-pairing clubs are only 28 of those 990 possible two-card combinations - less that 3%. Two running, non-pairing hearts might add about another 3%. A deuce plus another card (but not an ace or trey) another 6+4*35-7-8=131 combinations or another 13%, but for these are for just half the pot.

In terms of scoop equivalents, I'd figure my hand odds as about 81 to 11 or about 7.5 to 1 for going to the river. You might somehow luck out and win with a mediocre high or a 2nd nut low, but I wouldn't consider that in terms of hand odds when the action got back to me after already checking this round.

But that's looking at both of the next cards. Looking at things from that perspective, you should consider the 3rd and 4th betting rounds, in addition to the 2nd betting round. Doing that, your implied pot odds are between 5 to 1 and 7 to 1. From that perspective, check/calling seems a bit on the thin side. But I didn't include 2nd nut low chances in that estimation. If you think 2nd nut low will be good here, you have odds to call a single bet. If not, you don't (quite).

In terms of calling a bet or not after the flop, I think it's better if you just figure your odds for the next card, the turn. That's hard to do when your runner-runner chances are a big part of your hand. To put runner-runner draws into better perspective, I figure runner-runner flush draws as worth about the equivalent of one out each. That's admittedly crude, but puts me somewhere in the ball park. (I'm reminded here of a unit in physics called the "barn," which relates to "hitting the broad side of a barn" when bombarding a target with sub-atomic particles).

At any rate, two of the deuces are for only half of the pot. These, together with the other two deuces plus the runner-runner flush draws are worth maybe about the equivalent of 5 scoop equivalent outs for the turn.

In terms of scoop equivalents, I'd figure my hand odds as about 8 to 1 for the turn. It's confusing here, because 2nd nut low has a chance too - but 2nd nut low draw is a double edged sword, because you can get burned by the nut low if you _make the 2nd nut low - and you also can get burned by getting counterfeited on the river after making low on the turn.

Pot odds to call a single bet are at least 10.5 to 1 and implied pot odds to call a single bet are even better. <font color="red">What it boils down to is you actually (and clearly, IMHO) have odds, because of the pre-flop raises, to call a single bet after this flop, even though it may look like you're mostly chasing with the second nut low draw.</font>

[ QUOTE ]
...mid call, cutoff reraise, hero call, mid call.

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O.K. Because of the size of the pot, you have a clear call here, IMHO. But you should recognize that you've gotten yourself stuck in the tar by making the pot too large. By "stuck in the tar," I mean you may have favorable odds for chasing at least for this round, and maybe chasing the whole rest of the way.

Everybody else (who recognizes when the odds are favorable) may be stuck too. Your very aggressive play on the first and second betting rounds may be effective against opponents who more or less play random cards as starting hands and who chase with poor flop fits. It also may be effective against weak/tight players. After the flop you're forcing MP to either gamble or get out of the pot. MP, with the nut-low draw, decides to gamble. MP may have been hoping for just such an occurance.

Looking ahead, the pot is going to be very large, so that you may be stuck again on the turn and then again on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
turn: Jd

hero check, mid check, cutoff bet, hero call, mid call

[/ QUOTE ]

19.5 small bets or 9.75 big bets in the pot after the second betting round. At the point when the betting gets back to you after Cut-off bets, you're getting 10.75 to 1 to call, plus implied possibilities of maybe 11.75 to 1 or 13.75 to 1 (or even higher if you're playing with complete idiots). But it's realistically for only the low half the pot. The runner-runner flush possibilities have not panned out. Odds against catching a deuce are 40 to 4 or 10 to 1. Odds against catching another low card to make the 2nd nut low are 32 to 12, or about 3 to 1 - but be careful what you wish for!!

If you think the second nut low will be good on the river, then you have odds to draw. If not, you don't. But of course there's no way you could know.

You're out of position throughout this betting round. Immediately after the turn, you have two players yet to act behind you. Once you check, MP checks, and Cut-off bets - you're still out of position because MP is yet to act behind you.

And you have nothing but second nut low draw (with a 1 in 10 chance at the nut low plus an even more oblique shot at high).

What a mess!

[ QUOTE ]
river: 9d

hero check, mid check, cutoff bet, hero fold, mid call

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I haven't looked at the results yet. Whether or not your pair of sixes would have won for high, I think your proper play here is to fold.

[ QUOTE ]
result ....:

Mid: Ad 2h Kd Jc (winner pair of jack)
cutoff: As 3s 5s Ts

[/ QUOTE ]

Mid seems a bit on the passive side and Cut-off seems very aggressive. From that viewpoint, the play of both Mid and Cut-off makes sense and seems very logical.

Your own play, IMHO, on the second and third betting rounds was not very good. (Sorry to be blunt).

Although pre-flop with your hand from UTG I would have just called (usually), your pre-flop play seems all right, especially if you often raise from UTG, (and even if you don't). (Please understand that my own philosophy, rightly or wrongly, is you can either call or raise before the flop with just about any starting hand you decide to play).

After this flop, considering the betting and the size of the pot, I think you should check/call a single bet. My second choice for you would be to bet and then call a raise. (Not to be critical, but just to have a better idea of why some of my opponents do the things they do), I would be very interested in knowing what you were thinking when you check-raised on the second betting round.

Buzz

[joker1976]

thanks buzz, on the flop, the reason I check raised is that if by any chance I can knock out MP, I figured that my hand won't be so bad against cutoff. Cutoff either has a A2, A3 or a Q+ high pocket pair with Ace anything. He probably has the strength one way, but hardly both way. MP either has A2, A3 or maybe be a calling station with anything(he's new to table), If he has A3 low draw, I want to knock him out. If he has a pair of jack or something like that with no low possibility, I also want him to fold or whatever he holds, I just want him to fold unless he has a good hand and I know that usually on this limit(3-6 party) no one will fold anything with a single bet on flop when it's three bet preflop, but a check raise might.

Since he called, I got the message that my hand was horrible against the two. I was just chasing for the 2 and possibly 6 or second nut low on the turn. I think that I may have 20% chance winning the low with second nut and 70% chance winning the high if another 6 fall on the river. Sum it up, I should have about the odd to make the call. Whether it's the high variance or total crappy play, I lost nearly 3/4 of my winning on these type of hand in short run. You are right about choosing the table and seat, I am learning to avoid these situation.