No Limit at Foxwoods - Bad beat or bad playing? - Page 2

Justin A · #11 09-04-2004, 01:00 PM

In that case I apologize for my post also. In the future though, you shouldn't post hands where you get all your money in as a huge favorite, and get out drawn.

About the preflop call, yes you can make this call if you can outplay your opponents postflop. But as you mentioned yourself, you don't have the experience yet to be playing such a speculative hand. It will get you in more trouble than you want.

However, this hand was nicely played after the flop. I especially like the flop bet, because it disguises your hand nicely, and also has some folding equity.

Justin A

Murph · #12 09-04-2004, 03:15 PM

No apology sought or necessary, but appreciated nonetheless. And thanks for the good advice about pre-flop selection.

What do you mean by "folding equity"? I have seen that term a few times on 2Plus2 but am not familiar with its definition or implications. Could you explain please? Thanks.

kak17 · #13 09-04-2004, 04:17 PM

I disagree with Justin's comments about your bet on the flop. I personally would have checked the flop. When playing no limit holdem if you are last to act you don't want to risk being raised with a hand that doesn't want to be raised. An open end straight draw is a hand that would hate to be raised. If you are in early position it's good to bet to knock out players. If you are playing limit holdem it's good to bet because a raise will only cost you one more bet. But in no limit holdem you generally want to bet in situations like this with hands that wouldn't mind a raise like a set or two rags. Having a set would be an easy call. Having two rags would be an easy fold. Being raised with an open end straight would make you want to vomit. Bottom line is you should have checked and taken the free card.

fimbulwinter · #14 09-04-2004, 06:47 PM

good hand, he had a 4 outer, so you lose 8% of the time there. bad beat for big $; it sucks

i think people are being too hard on you for playing 25o in late position in an unraised pot. i see this hand having threefold value:

1. you'll get into a multiway pot with a hand nobody will ever see coming, thus it has huge implied odds and there are enough hands out there to pay you off the one time you do hit.
2. it allows you to play from the button, which means you can probably take the hand down if nobody hits anything they'd like to fight with.
3. it allows you to do that, flip over 25o and be the idiot who played 25o. then when you flop your set, the guy with the overpair think's you're full of it and you stack him. playing a hand like that adds vlue to your monsters.

obviously im a small stakes guy, flame away if you disagree

fim

Kirkrrr · #15 09-04-2004, 07:41 PM

I absolutely agree. On the button with a lot of limpers, I'll play unsuited one-gappers if the money is deep enough. An unsuited 2-gapped hand is more speculative, but I think you could easily make a case for it if you're deep enough and the game is loose enough that you think you'll get paid off big if you hit.

Kirk R.

TStoneMBD · #16 09-04-2004, 08:37 PM

while i definitely think it needs to be further emphasized that you shouldnt be playing these hands, i think it is a small error that you shouldnt worry about. playing 25o in this position is probably better than playing K5o because your hand isnt likely to be dominated. Sometimes I'll play a poor hand simply to please the other loose players into having a "family pot". having the image of a rock who only plays winners isnt the best image.

regardless, i do agree with kak that this hand probably shouldnt be bet on the button at this limit or at this table. if you are having a table that is seeing a family pot, it is likely that this pot is protected, and all a bet is going to do is cost you money when you miss. it is common to bet draws in nl, but you have to be fairly certain that your bet will take down the pot now and then. people are expecting you to bet the button here if you are an aggressive player, and betting this will likely backfire in your face. however this arguement is highly speculative and is dependant entirely upon many table factors that you didnt detail, so i cant give a cut and dry answer as to the best route for whether this flop should be bet or not.

another point that most people arent making here is that it is highly unlikely that anyone at the table is nearly as deepstacked as you are, so limping in with garbage hands isnt really ".25%" of your stack, as all of your money isnt in play.

if there are other deep stacks at the table then betting this flop has the advantage of being able to get an allin pot if you hit your straight. if there is no bet on the flop then it is unlikely this pot will esculate into anything other than a small win.

brassnuts · #17 09-05-2004, 02:16 AM

I don't play NL... just browsing the forum for fun... anyways, what the hell was the villain in this hand doing?

Murph · #18 09-05-2004, 05:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
another point that most people arent making here is that it is highly unlikely that anyone at the table is nearly as deepstacked as you are, so limping in with garbage hands isnt really ".25%" of your stack, as all of your money isnt in play.

if there are other deep stacks at the table then betting this flop has the advantage of being able to get an allin pot if you hit your straight. if there is no bet on the flop then it is unlikely this pot will esculate into anything other than a small win.

[/ QUOTE ]

There were two players deeper. Both with about $4k. Don't know if that changes your analysis. I will include more details the next time I post a hand. Thanks.

Daann · #19 09-05-2004, 05:58 AM

You can't be afraid of a check raise whenever you bet, especially with the board in this hand. You have the opportunity to take down the pot now, so go for it. The other reason here would be that the stacks are big enough to necessitate a bet so that it makes it far easier to get all in when you do hit.

BarronVangorToth · #20 09-05-2004, 07:50 PM

The Foxwoods No Limit 5/5 game is one of the juiciest games I've ever seen where I certainly don't have what it takes to hang there for any length of time -- however, I will say from watching my buddy Bruce destroy it enough times, that IF you have enough money (he always makes sure he has the most money at the table -- no matter what happens, he is always the biggest stack) and a complete disregard for it, you can limp in with all sorts of stuff and move people off their hands very reliably.

And now they have a better game going -- the $1,000 minimum buy-in (vs. the $200 minimum on the 5/5) which was even more crazy this weekend. I was satisfied with my 3 BB/hour average I got last night until I realized that Bruce made about 20x's more money at the NL game.

As to your play, it's random unluckiness after the turn. You make that same play against that same opponent with those same holdings 100 times and you come out with a new car. This time ... you didn't.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com