I don't know what to do with ATo - Page 2

mscott2374 · #11 09-01-2004, 04:38 PM

I muck this UTG. The problem with playing this have is that you will have very poor position for the remainder of the hand IMO

Navers · #12 09-01-2004, 04:40 PM

why is it better to raise than limp with ATo?

Nick B. · #13 09-01-2004, 06:15 PM

I guess it really depends what the buy in for the tournaments are and the level. I would guess that 7 people left would probably be around level 3 (50-100). I play the $200 sngs at party so my main interest is collecting chips. There really isn't that much post flop play so I don't think position matters that much. Here are a couple hands of ATo UTG.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed)

Hero (t955)
UTG+1 (t995)
MP1 (t885)
MP2 (t1180)
MP3 (t1980)
CO (t885)
Button (t1185)
SB (t955)
BB (t980)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t45, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls t45, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (t115) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: (t115) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: (t115) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: t115
Main Pot: t115 (t115), between Hero and CO. > Pot won by CO (t115).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows As Td (one pair, eights).
CO shows Ad Qd (one pair, eights).
Outcome: CO wins t115. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed)

Hero (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1000)
MP1 (t1105)
MP2 (t2055)
MP3 (t860)
CO (t985)
Button (t925)
SB (t965)
BB (t1105)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t45, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t45, CO folds, Button calls t45, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (t160) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets t125, MP3 folds, Button folds.

Final Pot: t285
Main Pot: t160 (t160), won by Hero.
Pot 2: t125 (t125), returned to Hero.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins t285. 

My favorite ATo, although not utg, i just feel like bragging a little.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed)

Hero (t1450)
UTG (t160)
UTG+1 (t900)
MP1 (t780)
MP2 (t3230)
CO (t990)
Button (t1495)
SB (t995)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls t30, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t90) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets t85, SB folds, Hero raises to t250, Button calls t165.

Turn: (t590) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (t590) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t1170 (All-In), Button calls t1170.

Final Pot: t2930
Main Pot: t2930 (t2930), between Hero and Button. > Pot won by Hero (t2930).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Ac Td (straight, ace high).
Button shows Th Qc (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins t2930. 

The middle rounds are good for collecting chips. If you are folding AT utg then I think you are playing too tight to give yourself legitimate shots at making the money and having very good chances of winning.

PrayingMantis · #14 09-01-2004, 06:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There really isn't that much post flop play so I don't think position matters that much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, how can you say that? Early stages of an SNG, it's all about post-flop play. The hands you post are nice (only two are from UTG), but they don't prove much, IMO. I must say, though, that as you climb up the buy-in's, raises from UTG get much more respect. In low buy-ins, raising with ATo from UTG will achieve very little, and can very well be -EV in many cases.

Nick B. · #15 09-01-2004, 06:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Seriously, how can you say that? Early stages of an SNG, it's all about post-flop play. The hands you post are nice (only two are from UTG), but they don't prove much, IMO. I must say, though, that as you climb up the buy-in's, raises from UTG get much more respect. In low buy-ins, raising with ATo from UTG will achieve very little, and can very well be -EV in many cases.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did mention that I was talking about $200 buy in SNG's at level 3.

Since 8/31 $200 buy in

Level 1
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed)

Button (t1945)
SB (t2425)
BB (t850)
Hero (t590)
UTG+1 (t985)
MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t895)
MP3 (t235)
CO (t1075)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t45, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO raises to t425, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t495
Main Pot: t115 (t115), won by CO.
Pot 2: t380 (t380), returned to CO.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. CO wins t495. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed)

MP1 (t2590)
MP2 (t630)
CO (t985)
Button (t850)
SB (t985)
BB (t2125)
Hero (t910)
UTG+1 (t925)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t45, UTG+1 calls t45, MP1 calls t45, MP2 calls t45, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (t205) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets t175, UTG+1 calls t175, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

Turn: (t555) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

River: (t555) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

Final Pot: t555
Main Pot: t555 (t555), between Hero and UTG+1. > Pot won by Hero (t555).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Ts Ac (two pair, tens and nines).
UTG+1 shows 8s 8c (two pair, nines and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins t555. 

one blind steal

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed)

Hero (t885)
MP2 (t975)
CO (t910)
Button (t1020)
SB (t2995)
BB (t1135)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1080)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of t15.
BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to t45, MP2 calls t45, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) folds.

Flop: (t105) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t90, MP2 calls t90.

Turn: (t285) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

River: (t285) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: t285
Main Pot: t285 (t285), between Hero and MP2. > Pot won by Hero (t285).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Td Ac (one pair, eights).
MP2 shows 9h Th (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Hero wins t285. 

blind steal

Level 2

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed)

Hero (t905)
UTG+1 (t1165)
MP1 (t1735)
MP2 (t940)
CO (t670)
Button (t1055)
SB (t1970)
BB (t1560)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t90, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB raises to t250, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t370
Main Pot: t210 (t210), won by SB.
Pot 2: t160 (t160), returned to SB.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. SB wins t370. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed)

BB (t635)
Hero (t1080)
UTG+1 (t910)
MP1 (t795)
MP2 (t1280)
MP3 (t925)
CO (t1020)
Button (t2395)
SB (t960)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t90, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t90, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (t225) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t175, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: t400
Main Pot: t225 (t225), won by Hero.
Pot 2: t175 (t175), returned to Hero.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins t400. 

blind steal

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (7 handed)

MP1 (t1255)
MP2 (t1475)
CO (t2040)
Button (t925)
SB (t945)
BB (t1275)
Hero (t2085)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t90, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t90, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (t225) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t225, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: t450
Main Pot: t225 (t225), won by Hero.
Pot 2: t225 (t225), returned to Hero.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins t450. 

Level 3

blind steal

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed)

BB (t2195)
Hero (t840)
UTG+1 (t835)
MP1 (t885)
MP2 (t1990)
MP3 (t1470)
CO (t895)
Button (t335)
SB (t555)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t150, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t150, MP3 calls t150, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (t525) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: (t525) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets t50, MP3 calls t50, Hero folds.

River: (t625) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets t50, MP3 calls t50.

Final Pot: t725
Main Pot: t725 (t725), between MP2 and MP3. > Pot won by MP2 (t725).

Results in white below: 
MP2 shows Jd Ad (one pair, jacks).
MP3 shows Kh Ah (high card, ace).
Outcome: MP2 wins t725. 

blind steal

Those are just the last two days.

PrayingMantis · #16 09-02-2004, 04:57 AM

I woudn't like to get into an argument here, but the fact is that you've stated that post-flop does not matter (that's why position doesn't matter, according to your logic), and then you post a series of hands that are almost all about post-flop play.

I won't get into detail about the specific hands, only a few points:

1. Again, the difference in buy-ins is critical for this kind of hand and position. In lower buy-ins, you can't play it the way you do in higher. The original poster is playing lower buy-ins, as far as I know, and my original answer was about lower buy-ins.

2. When you know what you're doing post-flop, you can pretty much raise with any hand PF. However, ATo is one of the worst hands to get into the pot with from EP, especially when you get callers PF and an A flops. The hands you posted were all pretty much easy to play. They don't prove much. The one time you'll be facing a higher ace, that won't raise you PF, or raise you small enough to let you still in, could very easily turn your earnings from a series of hands with ATo, into losing. It is DEFINITELY not a hand to win big pots with, but to win small, or lose big. It depends of course on your abiliy of playing, and your read of others.

3. I'm not saying your play is bad or anything, not at all. Only that saying that raising with ATo from UTG, at full or close to full table, should be a standard play (regardless of many factors) looks problematic to me. And posting a few hands from your last 2 days of play is usually not a good way to judge the profitability of a move, IMO. During the lasy 2 days I've lost all my stack 3 times with AA and 2 with KK. These hands are HUGE losers, as for the last two days. So? What conclusions can you draw from this? Not to play them anymore?

mackthefork · #17 09-02-2004, 05:12 AM

I should either fold, raise or call, hmmm i think i liked this thread better with just praying mantis reply on it [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. I think I'll stick with my present strategy of folding it.

Thanks for all your responses, I never thought there would be so much division of opinion on this one.

Regards Mack

Nick B. · #18 09-02-2004, 07:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I woudn't like to get into an argument here, but the fact is that you've stated that post-flop does not matter (that's why position doesn't matter, according to your logic), and then you post a series of hands that are almost all about post-flop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
There really isn't that much post flop play so I don't think position matters that much.

[/ QUOTE ]

There isn't that much post flop play. Most of the time it goes bet-fold. Rarely will anybody call and hope that you don't bet a weak ace again, and if they do, the don't ever bet to take the pot. Which really reduces their positional advantage. I guess I don't really think of it as that hard of a hand to play post flop, but I don't play the low buyin tournaments.

[ QUOTE ]
Only that saying that raising with ATo from UTG, at full or close to full table, should be a standard play (regardless of many factors) looks problematic to me. And posting a few hands from your last 2 days of play is usually not a good way to judge the profitability of a move, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

The original poster did state in 6 or 7 handed games. The last two days consists of 71 tournaments. Which is more than average. ATo is a +BB hand for me all time in levels 1-3 equal to 3 or more off the button and not a blind.

mackthefork · #19 09-02-2004, 07:23 AM

The position was 2 table down to 13 left and blinds 50/100 stack 2000 approx around average. You will get called by any ace and you cannot check unless you are willing to call an overbet of the pot (by a probably/possible worse hand), which i am not, it just doesn't seem worth it. Low buy ins sngs there is much more play after the flop, and people will bet/call with even middle or bottom pair, its worth avoiding vulnerable hand entirely, except in choice situations imo.

Regards Mack

PrayingMantis · #20 09-02-2004, 08:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There isn't that much post flop play. Most of the time it goes bet-fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

We clearly don't agree about the definition of "post-flop play". When you are in a pot against, say, 3 players, when it was raised PF by yourself, it makes a great difference whether you are acting 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th on the flop and later. Acting last gives you a much greater chance to win the pot if no one had shown any willing to bet, and you have MUCH more information than otherwise. It's basic. That's why ATo from the button is MUCH stronger than ATo from UTG, whether you are first to act PF (folded to you), or you simply limp behind callers PF. The ability to make a position-bet is very important. I really can not understand how you can dismiss like that the importance of position. It is critical for such vulnerable hands, and what's more: it's the ABC of the game.

[ QUOTE ]
The last two days consists of 71 tournaments. Which is more than average.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see what you mean here. Reread my last reply about losing with AA and KK during the last 2 days. 71 tournaments is a very small sample in regard to specific hands in specific positions and in specific stages of the game.

And what do you mean by "more than avarage"? This is very unclear. Avarage of what?

[ QUOTE ]
ATo is a +BB hand for me all time in levels 1-3 equal to 3 or more off the button and not a blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I truely don't quite understand what you are trying to say here. What do you mean by "+BB"? If you mean that raising with ATo from UTG in early stages of SNGs has been proven to be +EV for you in the *long run*, well, that's great, and you should surely keep playing it that way.