A Few River Check Raise Attempts...

[exist]

OK, these hands are river check raise attempts but the checks were also meant to induce bluffs. I can't remember specifics about these players, so I guess you should just assume them to be normal PP 5/10 6 max players. Comments on other streets are appreciated but I would really like input on the river action.


Hand #1

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 3 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, Button calls.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (4.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks.


Hand #2

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $5.
UTG (poster) checks, MP folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: (3 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks.


Hand #3

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP folds, CO calls, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, CO calls.

Flop: (5 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks.

[imitation]

Don't really like the 1st one, you completed in the SB so when you bet out on the flop it doesn't look like you're simply betting out because you were the PF raiser so its your civic duty, but more likely because you caught.

The fact the button has called I think means its likely he's also caught a piece of the board probably JT or something, if he's playing that loose 3 handed. I'd say he's as scared of the K as you and will check it through. Being 3handed it may change things if you opponent thinks you're likely to bet flop and turn with a pure bluff or flushdraw and is willing to call you down K-high....

2nd one is fairly similar, again I think the board pairing is more likely to scare than anything, i'd still bet this river.

3rd is getting closer but without seeing villian do it before I still bet this river, either they've caught a small piece of the river or they're calling with overcards or a smaller PP, if they're passive enough to play the rest of the hand the way they did then I think more often the river will be checked through and you will miss a value bet.

I don't play 5/10 this is stars 2/4 speak...

[Zele]

I don't usually try for river CRs in this game, unless I'm up against a known LAG, particularly one that never gives credit. Most players check through too much to make it worthwhile.

All these hands look like good CR candidates against the right kind of player.

[imitation]

Yeh I think thats the biggest point Zele all of these are possibles but certainly are not standard line against an unknown...as you say too many players will call all the way with crap and pay of a river bet too make them usefull often, if at all, in most games.

[jac394]

I think the only real check-raise possibility in these three hands is #1.

I think in #2, you should bet out, because if someone has an 8, they are probably going to raise you, and you can re-raise. Unless you have a real aggressive player who might try to bluff at this (but the board doesn't look scary enough for a bluff to me, no straights or flush possiblity, only can bluff at having an 8).

As for #3, I think you are only going to get someone to bet at this pot if you are already beat, but top pair or even 2nd pair will probably call a single bet. Depending on the other player, I don't think you will get anything but a check or call top two pair, because the board pairing counterfeits their hand if you have a higher pocket pair.

Anyway, that's my 2-cents

[Apocalypse]

i think they all suck..

do you see why? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[spydog]

Hand 1: I like. It's even better if an A hits on the river.

Hand 2: Against 4 players, I like to slowplay my well-hidden trips. Give the turn an opportunity to present an K or A to your opponents. The way you played it, however, I would lead the river and let the trip 8s raise so I can 3-bet. You really risk a checkthru to a wimpy player holding JT or something similar.

Hand 3: I like, unless my opponent is the type that won't bet 2nd pair on this board.

[Peter_rus]

I hate checking river with good hands and nearly never check-raise river. If i check river i prepared to call (with weak hand but having some SD value to indice bluff) of to fold with very weak hand. Maybe i miss something... Very rare check-raise attempts i can perform if i'm pretty sure he will bet with hand that will CALL my CR. It can be when decent player raises UTG i 3 bet with 77. Flop is 7K9. Then it's flop war between us - capped. Then he calls my turn bet with blank to fall on turn and then A happens on river...

[exist]

the thing that's unusual about these hands is that you don't usually see a player bet, bet and have his opponent call, call and expect the opponent to suddenly take aggressive action on the river (bet). hmm...I better explain why I went for the check raises.

in each of the hands there was a double suited board that did not complete to a possible flush. the boards were generally sparse (no boards like 79TJK). and my opponent had played passively, just calling my bets through the turn. also, my check might look like i was pushing a draw that didn't connect, providing more incentive for a bluff.

now for hand #1: what is my opponent likely to have? he limped on the button in a 3 handed game. this should tell you that he probably is not a very good player and that he has a weak hand.

i bet the flop and he called. i bet the turn and he called. it seems that he should have at least a pair or a flush draw, but he might have raised with either of those hands. so i thought it was quite possible he had nothing, not a pair, not a draw, zip, zero, zilch. so, if i bet the river, he will call if he has a pair of jacks or kings, but he is not likely to have either. when i check he would likely bet a K, and maybe a J (sounds stupid for him to call all the way with a J and then bet it on the river? well, many players play illogically). if he was on a flush draw, the only way to get any money from him is to check and let him bluff. so the check may induce a bluff from a nothing hand and the check raise will get double from a K, and sometimes from a J. so the main reason i checked was that i thought it was very likely that he had absolutely nothing and would not call a bet but would bluff sometimes, and sometimes bet a pair which i could check raise.

Hand #2: the main draws available here are gutshots and a flush, neither of which completed. so if he held either of these hands, the only way to get money from him was to check. once again it seems unlikely that he has a pair of jacks and never raised with them. however, if he did have jacks and called the whole way, he would often bet the river after a show of weakness by my check. if he has an 8, i don't have to worry about him checking. he probably would often 3 bet my check raise allowing me to cap. so it seemed like i gave him ample opportunity to bluff, and he would still likely bet a jack or 8.

Hand #3: once again there was a flush draw and straight draw that missed. he also may have been calling the whole way trying to pair overcards (bad players do this quite often). to get money from him when he has these type of hands, i have to check to let him bluff. if he has an 8 or a 6, he would often bet the river, taking my river check to mean i have unimproved high cards.

what do you guys think?

[tripdad]

you will lose more than you gain if you keep trying this stuff. looks like they have a piece of the board each time here. they will call if you bet. they will bluff bet less often than you think.

cheers!