Big Slick Suited for the Short Stack

[Scavengerfolk]

It's midway through a $50 buy-in online NL Hold 'em tourny (75 players left out of 300) and I have 3000 in chips (the average is 6000). I am UTG with AK suited. I raise to three times the BB for a total of 600. One player moves all-in with enough to cover me. Then another player reraises his whole stack. Everyone folds to me.

I call. One player has 10 10 the other Q Q. No one improves. I lose.

In theory, if I knew they had big pairs but not AA or KK, wasn't I correct to call at this point in the tourny with the small stack?

[BarronVangorToth]

At some point, you have to make a stand.

However, with 15 big bets in front of you ($200 = BB, right?) I don't consider you "short-stacked" yet.

Close...

It's a heckuva laydown to throw away 20% of your stack and NOT call with a soooooooooooooooooooted AK.

Sometimes, you have to make a stand.


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

[deacsoft]

I like the call for a chance to triple up.

[Jeff]

If it's QQ and below calling you, and you are sure of it for whatever reason, I'd say it's okay to call. You aren't shortstacked yet, but your stack is small enough that you aren't likely to be able to scare people off of pots, which of course can help you a lot. You are a slight underdog to QQ here, and having JJ or TT in the picture barely changes things, only there are 3 people's money in the pot. The presence of TT makes it worth you calling, as you and QQ get to split his money in the long run.

[Kopefire]

It's gonna depend on what I've read of the other players.

It would be a great lay-down, but AK is not a multi-way hand and it looses if not improved to most anything that's going to come back at you like that . ..


I think I'd be very tempted to lay this down with an eye to surviving into the money. On the other hand, i'd be very tempted to call it and pray. But let's face it, with multiple people coming in over the top of you, you have to assume you're facing at least one pair.

[xrongor]

im certainly no expert, but from my limited tournament experience 1/2 way is too early to go all in on almost any hand pre flop. even aces. you're still in survival mode.

a simple example. lets say you choose carefully and its always 80:20 that you will win. you do that 5 times and your chance of surviving all of them are only 32%

even at 90:10 its down to 59%.

randy

[Grisgra]

AK is probably a multiway hand against the kinds of hands that will go all-in like that ...except another AK of course.

AK's chances against QQ alone are pretty similar to its chances against QQ and TT... relative to the size of the stacks.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
It would be a great lay-down, but AK is not a multi-way hand

[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong. AKs is a multi-way hand. Unless someone has AA or KK, even AKo is usually a clear favorite in a multiway pot, and AKs is better. See these examples.

[ QUOTE ]
But let's face it, with multiple people coming in over the top of you, you have to assume you're facing at least one pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is merely likely, not definite. If no one has a pair, AKs is usually a huge favorite. AKs is usually a favorite against one or more pairs anyway, as was the case here against TT and QQ. AKs is sometimes a favorite in a multiway pot including KK.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
im certainly no expert, but from my limited tournament experience 1/2 way is too early to go all in on almost any hand pre flop. even aces. you're still in survival mode.

[/ QUOTE ]
Despite its popularity, that idea is horribly wrong. You don't get a prize for surviving the hand. No one can afford to throw aces away.

[ QUOTE ]
a simple example. lets say you choose carefully and its always 80:20 that you will win. you do that 5 times and your chance of surviving all of them are only 32%

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you win more than 32% of your tournaments? Do you manage to double up 5 times in more than 32% of your tournaments? If you double up several times, don't you expect to have the next player covered?

Don't wait for the chip fairy. Get your chips in when you have the best of it. You will lose more times on that hand, but you will win more tournaments and more prize money.

[xrongor]

[ QUOTE ]
Despite its popularity, that idea is horribly wrong. You don't get a prize for surviving the hand. No one can afford to throw aces away

[/ QUOTE ]

well i made a blanket statement, and paid the price.

yes you do get the prize for surviving the hand. the prize is that you are still in the tournament. im certainly not suggesting you throw them away, you play them. just dont blindly put your tournament on the line yet just cause you got aces. two people call and suddenly its a coin toss. 5 coin tosses and you have a 3% chance of survival.

if you got a guaranteed heads up situation because everyone else folded, i'd probably go for it. but i'd much prefer to see my opponent raise back to me before going all in than just going all in. when you go over the top he might fold right there and i'd rather play it that way. i realize others have different theories about this and would feel you have actually lost money if they folded...

i agree that you should put players with a smaller stack to the test when you have a great hand before the flop. just be very wary of putting the tournament on the line.

im certainly not claiming there is any particular right or wrong answer here either. play styles vary and if a method works for you, well you cant argue with success.

for me personally i found i had much better success when i quit putting my tournament on the line pre flop that early with just a good 2 card hand. i make it up by playing agressively (but not crazily) stealing lots of blinds with smaller strategic raises that dont put me all in, or being called out while stealing and hitting the flop. when i fold im not out. when i switched my strategy ive found that im always in the top 15-20% minimum and rarely shortstacked. and as we all know you still need some luck to actually win a tournament. i dont think anyone has ever won without hiting some river flush draw or something like that at some point in the tournament.

one final note, and i should have also said this up front. i dont play in big entry fee tourneys. just cheap ones and freerolls. you really gotta watch out for those silly callers hitting crazy hands... that specifically is how i kept getting busted out and what not going all in so early has prevented. once the table starts to settle down, thats when i start playing aces. its just that in the tourneys i play in they dont seem to settle down that early.

so in summary, if your method works, use it. maybe at some point my skills will get better and ill see a reason to start playing that agressive earlier but for now its been the play that helped me.