Two Similar AK hands

nef · #1 08-28-2004, 12:08 PM

Comments?

Paradise Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: nef is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, nef raises, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 3-bets, CO (poster) folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, nef calls.

Flop: (11.33 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, nef calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (7.16 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, nef calls, MP3 calls.

River: (10.16 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, nef bets, MP3 calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 13.16 BB

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Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: nef is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, MP1 folds, nef 3-bets, CO folds, Button folds, SB caps, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, nef calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, nef calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, nef calls, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, nef calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Aljechin · #2 08-28-2004, 12:24 PM

I would raise both flops. What are you afraid of?
You need to protect your hand, though, there are great flush draws around

prayformojo · #3 08-28-2004, 12:36 PM

So you're that guy I lose to when I bet out all the way with my dominated ace, waiting for you to tell me you have a better hand. I just want to say thanks.

Seriously, bet the flop, re-raise, cap. If you're going to play flops this passively, you have got to follow it up with "%$^&# chasers always draw out on me. I can't wait until I have the bankroll to move up to 10/20 where I can play against real poker players".

MarkL444 · #4 08-28-2004, 12:48 PM

What could you possibly be afraid of that you play these hands so weak? Be more aggressive on the flop. Try to think more about what your opponents could have. You are ahead of a vast majority of betting hands.

Not raising these flops is absolutely terrible.

zimmer879 · #5 08-28-2004, 01:07 PM

nef, did you play so passively because you thought these were both cases in which you were either way ahead or way behind? Heads up, your play might have been justifiable, but I can't imagine it's correct multi-way.

MarkL444 · #6 08-28-2004, 01:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Heads up, your play might have been justifiable, but I can't imagine it's correct multi-way.

[/ QUOTE ]

what?

prayformojo · #7 08-28-2004, 01:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heads up, your play might have been justifiable, but I can't imagine it's correct multi-way.

[/ QUOTE ]

what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll second that.

What?

zimmer879 · #8 08-28-2004, 01:39 PM

Take the first hand. If he raises the flop, he loses any action from KK, JJ, and TT, who will probably fold on the flop or for one bet on the turn. Assuming this is a typical player , the most likely hands he would 3-bet with outside of the ones previously listed are AA, QQ, Ak, or maybe AQs, none of which nef wants to give action to. Ak is either way ahead or way behind, and calling it down and betting if checked to is a reasonable option. You're not gonna fold in this situation ever, so you want to get as much money from your opponent if ahead, and loses as little as possible if behind. If the opponent is a LAG or will call down regardless, then you might want to try something different.

nef · #9 08-28-2004, 03:01 PM

I posted these hands for several reasons. I thought they were interesting and were near the borderline for me in terms of how I played them. In either hand with two players left to act behind me I would certainly raise the flop. I do not normally play TPTK in this manner and am not certain my play was correct. However I was thinking about what my opponents had during this hand, and I may have out-thought myself, but this wasn't a case of being "afraid" of monsters under the bed or anything of the sort.

In the first hand a guy who limps and then calls two, bets the flop into a raiser and pre-flop 3-bettor. A strange play, but still at this point I thought it was likely I had the best hand. Now I have to decide to call or raise. I most likely don't need to "protect my hand" against the person behind me who likely has 2 or 3 outs. I decided to call to let the person behind me in.

I put the 3-bettor on AJ-AK, 88-AA and possibly some weaker suited Aces and lower pairs. Of these hands I beat:
AJ 8 ways
KK 3 ways
JJ 6 ways
TT 6 ways
99 6 ways
88 6 ways

And I lose to:
AA 1 way
QQ 3 ways
AQ 6 ways

Of all the hands he has, in this case only when he has AJ is it better for me to raise than call here against him. If I raise and he has an underpair he will probably fold. If he has me beat I lose more money. Also he will probably raise himself with some of the Aces I beat and probably the hands that beat me. When I just call the player behind me is getting 13:1 not nearly enough with his two-outers and close with his rare 3-outers. I think I profit from his call here. I do not know if I would profit more by raising and playing heads-up against a weak Ace or a flush draw. Of course in an ideal world the bettor has a weak Ace, I raise the flop and the guy behind me cold calls with KK I bet it down and win. However, in this hand I have reason to believe 3-bettor is not that poor of a player.

Also sometimes the guy leading on the flop will have Aces up or a set and I lose more by raising.

If the flop had gone bet, call, fold and I was left heads up, then I would for certain raise the turn. Since the guy called behind me I decided to let him in on the turn.

In both hands I had the same situation, a guy bets into two players who showed strength pre-flop, I am next to act, and the person left to act behind me has a narrow range of hands due to pre-flop action. I cannot argue that raising the flop is wrong, I just don't think it is as clear as most of the top pair situations.

In hand one the bettor had A8o and the guy behind me had KK.
In hand two they both had TT.

Thanks for the responses.

spamuell · #10 08-28-2004, 04:17 PM

The second hand, I think you need to be more aggressive on the flop like people said.

The first hand, I'm not so sure. It's a way ahead, way behind situation really. You likely have the 3-bettor drawing to 2 or 3 outs, if you just call the flop he will probably call with KK (or smaller than ace pairs), and raise with AJs (or other aces with smaller kickers) allowing you to either call-reraise the flop (and slow down if played back at). If you raise, he probably folds KK etc and flat calls with other aces.

If you are behind (to AQ, AA, QQ) and you just call and he raises, you can threebet there and slow down if capped.

I think you should raise the turn though, it's fairly likely that he will give up with KK anyway and lesser As are still calling you down.