Bellagio 30-60 hand

[Diplomatdcm]

Bellagio 30-60 game, the game has been ok and is getting real real good, very very loose very aggressive, felt like the party 15 on crack.
Anways, the game is 10 handed,
I am UTG+1, with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],
UTG, bad very loose chaser, limps, I raise, 2 folds, very loose bad MP player calls, Horrible button calls, bad SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, 5 to the flop.
flop is
3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG bets, this could be a pair, but he might also be a total bluff, I raise, folded to the SB who calls two cold, UTG folds.
Turn is the K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB bets, I auto riase and instanly don't like it, He 3 bets I think and think and call.
River is the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
He bets I call.
is this routeen? the turn felt bad, but I was not sure, all comments appricated.

[Bob S.]

The Sb's calling two cold on that flop would throw on the sirens in my head. Since you say he is a bad player I think there is no value in raising him on the turn...you've caught one of the best possible cards you can and now he is leading out into you looking like he wants to make sure no street goes without a bet. His being a bad player also makes it very hard to lay down to a turn 3-bet and laying down would be totally player dependent. I think my line would have been to just call down the turn and river once he springs to life on the turn since I could not lay this down to a "bad" player.

Bob S.

[Diplomatdcm]

sorry correction, he was not jsut bad he was stupid, over aggrssive with any piece of the flop, and just horrible. Nevertheless, I think i prolly should have jsut called down too. However, with an over aggressive player like this the turn bet just seemed very werid, why not check raise, why not 3 bet the flop? Just seemed like a very weird play.

[Bob S.]

I think a significant factor I didn't point out was that UTG folded for only one more bet on the flop. Sb's cold call is surely to entice him in not suspecting him to fold for just one more bet on the flop, now when it gets heads he may really be fearing giving a free street since that K on the turn may very well be a bad card for you in his eyes should you be holding AT, JJ, QQ etc. Also you say he is overagressive with any piece of the flop...this pretty much rules out hands like KT which he would be more likely to lead out with or check-raise on the flop rather than just calling. Seems to make it all more likely he holds a tre...or more hopefully he has absolutely nothing which is a distinct possibility and you picked up a few extra bets.

Bob S.

[sweetzer]

As you raised on the flop, I would certainly expect a hand with trips to check raise you on the turn. As such, I would put him on a weaker King rather than a 3. I think your turn raise is fine. Once he three bets, I would still call him down considering your read/description. I very seldom try to make "good lay-downs" against that type of player, especially considered how unpredicable games have become.

[elysium]

hi manic

the flop raise is the only real issue here. you will improve your chances by raising, no doubt, and if you are continuing on in the hand, then you must raise. often though, there will be times when folding is correct. many varying situations could give a fold value, especially when losing. being tired in this kind of game can also impact on your decision to continue on in the hand, because this is the type of game in which you will almost always be able to stay competitive, as long as you retain primary motor control and hand eye coordination, all of which goes at about 48hrs. when the game is too good to get away from, the value of sleep declines; however, the complexity of a given hand rises as the need for sleep rises in these good, hard to get away from games. sometimes, the hand needs to be very simple indeed in order to make being involved in the hand correct. the level of cognizance needed on the flop in this one may have waned below the participation point at the 48hr. mark.

[Philuva]

If he is really as bad as you say then the turn raise is fine, as more often then not he has a hand with a K in it and was just calling the flop with overcards and thinks his K is now good. When he 3 bets, I obviously just call down, again as he may be still pusing a K here.

Against most standard players, I call down when he bets out on the turn.

[Steve Giufre]

Elysium,

Do you really think he has to raise the flop if he wants to continue? Unless UTG is total maniac, I doubt he will be leading out into the preflop raiser directly to his left with no pair on a board of 10 3 3 rainbow. I think you could argue the flop a lot of different ways.

[elysium]

hi steve

the raise is a must. he may have to draw-out, but there is some chance that he's up against overs only. he must represent trips to give his overs the best chance of standing up, and perhaps folding an out of position weak T. he must raise very well of course, and have been brutally conditioning the field to respond affirmitively to the instruction he is giving through the levying effects a goodly raise may bear upon those left to act. if the whole field scatters, so much the better.

[elysium]

the level of cognizance actually doesn't itself wane as it were. oh, it was late. i was tired. not grammatically correct, but you get the point.