Pre-Flop Raise / Betting on the Flop

[StoneRose]

From what I've read, Ed Miller's Small Stakes Hold Em book suggests raising in late position if there have been limpers with hands like As-9s. I find that 95% of the time I put in the only raise with a hand like this, all of the limpers will check to me on the flop regardless of the board.

So, lets say I am on the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and four players have limped before me and I raise. If the flop is K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and it is checked to me, should I bet at this pot trying to represent a strong hand and entice folders? It seems like my hand is very likely 2nd or 3rd best at this point, and I risk being checkraised. If I had called preflop, anyone with a K or a J would likely have already bet at this flop and I would have a more clear understanding of where I stood.

But if I check the flop consistently in situations like these, I feel that other players may lose respect for my preflop raises, and bet into me more in the future when I've raised pre-flop. This may be good or bad. I don't know.

Does the expected value of a hand like A-9s change from a raising hand to a calling hand if you expect to bet your raised hands on the flop regardless of whether you hit them or miss them?

[Gator]

My read is that you want to sometimes bet a second best hand in order to protect it, if it improves. For example, betting this hand will probably not fold TJ. It may fold AT and if you hit your Ace you win the pot. It may also get you a free card. I don't have the book in front of me but there are some clear criteria to use when deciding to make this bet including how likely you are to get a free card, how likely you are to cause hands like AT (in this example) to fold and how likely you are to be check raised.

[StoneRose]

Maybe betting the hand might be the best play for that board, but if you anticipate HAVING to bet your hand on the flop if no one else bets, regardless of what falls, do you still think it's a positive Expected Value play to raise with A-9s in the first place? The two small bets you invest pre-flop is really three small bets, and there's a good chance that anyone who calls the third bet already has you beat.

[fnord_too]

I think the idea of raising pre flop is for value. You probably have the best hand, so get the extra money in. Personally, on this flop, I check and fold to any bet on the turn if I dont catch an ace (which isn't a guarantee I will continue with the hand, either).

With four opponents and no hand/no draw, even if the board is not coordinated like this one is, I'm not putting anything else into the pot. You are not going to induce a lot of folds here, and your probably not going to be able to take down the pot with a follow on bluff. You missed, take your free card and move on to the next hand.

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
...but if you anticipate HAVING to bet your hand on the flop if no one else bets, regardless of what falls, do you still think it's a positive Expected Value play to raise with A-9s in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

You never HAVE to bet. Don't feel like you're obligated to bet the flop because you raised pre-flop. You must evaluate each flop on a case by case basis.

In the example you gave arguments could be made for betting or checking, and this would likely depend on the particular players and table texture. How likely are these players to check/call with a K, check/raise?, would they bet or c/r their flush draws? Will a flop bet get you a free turn? Things like that.

One thing to keep in mind is how likely it is for your opponents to put a pre-flop raiser on AK, which means that often, if no-one else has a K you can take a pot like this down with a flop bet. Probably not against 4 opponents though.

The main thing is to get away from "obligatory" plays, you aren't REQUIRED to bet every flop if you raised pre. You really have to consider the particulars of the situation. Ed's overcards chapter is well worth re-reading on this subject.

/mc

[Louie Landale]

If there are 4 callers and you raise with A9s and the flop is KJ2 and they check, you should check. What are you thinking? This isn't rocket science.

But lets say you raised with 88 and the flop is KJ2, now what? In this case you GREATLY prefer that they bet their K or J into you letting you lay it down. THIS is a reason not to raise with 88 late: you get to play the flop with more useful information that matters quite a bit. And in general, this is the main reason not to raise marginally in late position.

Overall, you are better off having the opponents bet into you when they make something: getting 2-bets in with the best hand is better than getting 1 bet in with the best and getting "free" cards the rest of the time.

But if you raise so much that they "lose respect" and bet into you on the flop, then you get the best of both worlds: [1] Increased EV with marginal PreFlop raises [2] raises on the flop when you make something.

So I'd say don't raise marginally with hands that need valuable information on the flop; those that tend to make 2nd or 3rd pair; but go ahead and raise marginally with those that generally don't need the information; which are those that tend to flop top pair or better or draws. This reasoning will make you more inclined to raise with QJs than 88.

This is NOT a compelling argument; but I think its a reasonable one.

- Louie

[Fiery Jack]

What about when you raise in early position with AK, and the flop doesn't have an A or a K?

If there are 2 people still in, is a check reasonable here or should you play as you would if you had AA?


FJ

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
What about when you raise in early position with AK, and the flop doesn't have an A or a K?

If there are 2 people still in, is a check reasonable here or should you play as you would if you had AA?


FJ

[/ QUOTE ]

This is usually a tricky situation. I usually go off the texture of the flop. If it is a flop that is likely to have missed my opponents, I will often bet out and fire again on the turn if a blank hits. With a coordinated flop, I get a lot more cautious. With two opponents you still have a chance of winning the pot without a showdown, and you even have a little showdown value (since if you are betting it will likely get to HU quickly). AK after the flop can just be nasty to play, and is very situationally dependant. Certainly don't play it like AA if you have a calling station in the pot with you.

[Leavenfish]

[ QUOTE ]
If there are 4 callers and you raise with A9s and the flop is KJ2 and they check, you should check. What are you thinking? This isn't rocket science.

Louie

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, by raising with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] preflop, are you not REALLY playing for a big hand--say a flush? That's where you are going to get the pay off in the long run when you raise pre-flop with this. An A on the flop is still somewhat problematic since you have a 9.
You did not get either the flush draw or anything favorable on the flop, so you check. Simple, no?

[StoneRose]

I've been blindly following the Phil Hellmuth school of aggressive post flop play which says bet out on the flop no matter what you raised with and no matter what the board looks like (if you put in the last raise pre flop). Though his book seems to suggest that its style applies to novice-type games, I suppose, in reality, it's simply not a good strategy for playing A-Xs in a passive loose game. You aren't likely to convince anyone into thinking you have the goods.