88 100-200 hand

[mike l.]

an opponent checking behind on the turn is much much less likely in the specific situation i describe (a 3 handed 1-2 game) then in normal blind steal situations in fuller games at lower limits. there's just too good of a chance of A high being good on a paired ragged board like that to consider checking A high on the turn here. someone drawing to good pair outs and a small flush need to be charged. and as a result A high is headed for a showdown on this board.

so looks like i seriously underplayed this one.

[Ikke]

I PM'ed you the name. But please read further...

You wrote in another post in this thread:
[ QUOTE ]
i call his 3 bet. check call the flop. checkraise the turn. and decide what to do on the river. keeps me from getting outplayed also in a spot like this out of position.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean that it keeps you from getting outplayed in this specific hand then I disagree. Check-raising the turn opens you up for getting outplayed IMO.

First, I don't think too much information is gained from his 3-bet preflop. Lots of players are using the in position against a SB blind steal in 3-handed situations to regain initiative. He probably will have a somewhat decent hand, but I wouldn't narrow down his hand based on this too much. Especially if he's the kind of player who wants to push around and from his description it seems he is.

Now let's first see the situation from the SB's point of view. What would you do in this situation if you had a hand like top pair or better without a diamond? I would think you would check-raise the flop here, no? If not, I would really like to hear why not.

So if you agree you will generally not be slowplaying good hands on this type of flop. You also probably will only continue with this hand if you either have a pair (maybe two overcards with an ace) or a (good) diamond. So the fact that you continue with this hand (whether you check-call or check-raise) gives the info away that you either have pair or better or a diamond. In fact, I think the information leak is about as big for check-calling and check-raising, but that's not really the point here.

So he should know you have some kind of hand. If you check-call the flop, I'm sure he could check some hands behind that you don't want him to check. Mainly hands that have a decent diamond draw with not much showdown value. Hands like KxTd, QT(d) etc. These make up for quite some amount of hands if you explore all possibilities. This hurts you.

Also, look at the hands that might 3-bet you on the turn. I'm convinced most of them have you terribly beat, and if the BB is a very good player, his hands he is 3-betting you with might also be quite large. By that I mean hands like AA-JJ, a J, flush, and even hands like TT,99,88 might. For those last hands it's typically the "Angelinian" approach; 3-bet there and that's the last bet that goes in (provided that you don't have a diamond). With this play you're putting most heat on the draws and you can savely fold when 4-bet. Again, this hurts you a lot.

By check-raising the flop you avoid a lot of these concerns IMO. As said, I don't think there's much difference in information leakage. If he just calls your check-raise you're in excellent position and have initiative. If he 3-bets you it's close whether you stop and go or check; I don't think it matters too much EV wise and it also isn't too much exploitable (if you think it is I would like to hear why).

So IMO trying to check-raise the turn can really hurt you and doesn't have too much added benefit compared to check-raising the flop. If you are mainly check-raising the turn here because of future plays then that would be a whole new discussion. What do you think?

Regards

[Ulysses]

Sometimes I think like I'm gonna quit reading this whole forum. Then Zee and Ikke start discussing something (anything) and then I feel like maybe it's not all a big waste of time after all.

Thanks.

[ike]

I'm with you here Diablo, this is one of the best threads in a long time.

[Coilean]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, look at the hands that might 3-bet you on the turn. [...] if the BB is a very good player, his hands he is 3-betting you with might also be quite large. By that I mean hands like AA-JJ, a J, flush, and even hands like TT,99,88 might.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't the BB also have to 3-bet the turn (and then bet the river as well) with some hands that do not beat 88 for us to get "outplayed" when trying Ray's line here? Otherwise, we can safely check fold the river after calling the 3-bet on the turn without losing anything beyond the 3 bets we were willing to commit anyways, and may even wind up picking up an extra bet here and there when we draw out.

A check behind on the turn with the QxTd type hands seems more of a threat to our EV to me than getting 3-bet, but at least is limited to losing a partial bet against a specific set of hands, as I don't see the BB folding many (if any) correct odds draws to beat an 88 if we do bet the turn (which could become a pot sized catastrophe otherwise). So maybe it is mostly a question of how often you get off the turn check raise against a worse hand (that either calls down, or maybe better yet, folds with some outs) versus how often you wind up giving a free look at the river to the QxTd type hands?

Personally, I'm like you and generally go for the nearly guaranteed flop check raise followed by turn bet, but the turn check raise line is certainly an interesting option, and should at least be a good way to mix up your play, if not a better play in itself (which I can't say with any certainty).

[Ikke]

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't the BB also have to 3-bet the turn (and then bet the river as well) with some hands that do not beat 88 for us to get "outplayed" when trying Ray's line here? Otherwise, we can safely check fold the river after calling the 3-bet on the turn without losing anything beyond the 3 bets we were willing to commit anyways, and may even wind up picking up an extra bet here and there when we draw out.


[/ QUOTE ]

By giving the range of hands that could 3-bet you I was not trying to develop a counter strategy against Ray's suggested play. I was merely trying to indicate that the hands your opponent can 3-bet (and that beat you) might be bigger than you would expect at first sight.

But let's go with the hands that 3-bet you as I suggested and assume a hand with the Ad will play the same way. Are you still making that river fold for 1 bet in a 11 BB pot? My point is that it's almost impossible to get such a good read on your opponent that you can fold the river here for 1 bet. In practise, you are more likely to make that call, even if it's -EV. And that's my definition of getting outplayed.

I'm not saying check-raising the turn is bad, but I do think it's less profitable than check-raising the flop (although both are +EV IMO). It certainly is an interesting option to consider for mixing it up, but as said I think it's a play where you give up something. It might have a benefit for future plays though. But looking at this isolated hand I still stand by my point.

Regards

[Ikke]

Are you trying to make me blush Diablo? [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Anyway..thanks for the compliment. And oh ya...you should post some more hands in the NL forum. I want to learn that game, so I can beat you in Vegas next year ;-)

Regards

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

post of the year.

--turnipmonster