Took heat at the table ... now the forum? II

[Abednego]

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="666666">6 folds</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (3 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 9.50 BB, between Hero and SB.</font>

[TheHip41]

You absolutely must raise this hand on the button. K-7s is a monster vs. two blinds. You might win it right there. Everything else I play the same way.

[MicroBob]

i agree.
if it's folded to you in the CO or button you are probably in raise-or-fold territory.
you have position...and you take charge with your raise.
limping from this spot is weak.

i don't know what the table would be giving you grief about.

[bisonbison]

if you opencall on the button vs. me, you get a note. Especially if you do it with a mediocre hand that is probably best and may win the blinds if raised.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
may win the blinds if raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree in this case it's a value raise, but I am curious about y'alls stats for success rate in stealing the blinds from the button. I don't play as much as y'all but have almost never seen both blinds fold to a button raise. seems to me like "might win the blinds" is going to happen just north of never.

--turnipmonster

[MoreWineII]

Abednego, this is another instance where you're limping PF when you should be raising. You're going to to hear it over and over if you keep posting hands on this forum.

I'm not sure what the table gave you heat about after the flop, looks pretty run-of-the-mill to me.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree in this case it's a value raise, but I am curious about y'alls stats for success rate in stealing the blinds from the button. I don't play as much as y'all but have almost never seen both blinds fold to a button raise. seems to me like "might win the blinds" is going to happen just north of never.

[/ QUOTE ]
It happens on a regular basis for me. The case for raising is just overwhelming:

1. Once you decide to play, raising risks 1 SB to win 2.5 SB.

2. Sending even one blind to the showers greatly improves your winning chances.

3. So they both call. If trying to steal the blinds was such a poor gamble, they must often have trash. How much EV could that extra bet preflop have lost? Surely with the button you must have somewhere close to a 1/3 chance to win this hand.

4. Usually they check to you on the flop. Depending on who called, you are now getting between 4.5-1 and 6-1 on a bluff bet. People call the flop a lot but not often enough and this bluff is very profitable. Frequently stealing also creates an environment that forces your opponents to give your good hands a lot of action postflop.

5. Good blinds play back very aggressively at "steal-limpers". Limping does not save as much money as you might expect because you tend to get raised when your hand is second-best preflop. The blinds also feel very free to bet the flop when you show such weakness. Now you are in the position of having to frequently call with trash becuase you only flop a hand 1/3 of the time. Game theory says you need to call a lot more often then that. Otherwise the blinds make a fortune by always betting without even looking at their hands.

Limping from cutoff is actually worse than the button because of the importance of capturing the button for yourself. Sklansky says that on rare occasions limping from the button can be correct, but he makes no exception for cutoff.

[Shawsy]

I will add my voice to the chorus of "raise pre-flop" messages. The reasons have been stated very clearly in other posts in the thread.

What kind of grief did you take at the table? Was this the third or fourth hand in a row that you made a flush on the river or something?? This hand alone doesn't have much in it that should catch you any grief.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
may win the blinds if raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree in this case it's a value raise, but I am curious about y'alls stats for success rate in stealing the blinds from the button. I don't play as much as y'all but have almost never seen both blinds fold to a button raise. seems to me like "might win the blinds" is going to happen just north of never.

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

I play at party 2/4 tables all the time where it is folded around to the big blind, and also where there are plenty of steals. (Maybe my table selection is poor, but these games aren't that rare. ) I wish it was harder to steal the blinds.

[Milky]

I've been able to steal the blinds a few times on .50/1.00 PP tables. It doesn't happen very often but you need to take advantage of the situation when it does.