What kind of player do you hate to play against?

[cferejohn]

In the mid-to-late stages of a tournament, my style tends to be all-in/fold. That is, if I'm facing a raise and I've got 20-30x the BB, I'm usually either pushing or folding. I find, however, that the players who give me the most trouble are the players who will flat-call raises preflop, especially in LP (as opposed to the blinds). Unsurprisingly, this is a popular tactic of some of the trickiest tournament pros (Hansen, Negraneu).

I'd like to be able to add this weapon to my game, at least occasionally. It seems like I'd want the following conditions:

1. Raiser is a good aggressive player who I suspect can steal-raise or semi-steal raise from a number of positions. "Good" is important because I want them to be capable of laying down to bluffs.

2. I am unlikely to be called by a player with postion on me. Preferably I am unlikely to be overcalled period (i.e. blinds are tight).

3. I have a hand that can flop big. but that I can get away from if I miss (I may bluff at it, but I can get away if I get action). Hands like suited connectors, small pairs.

4. I have enough chips to scare the raiser. Preferably I out-chip them.

Like steal-raising, this seems like a tactic that you could easily start using too often and have it bite you in the ass. I'm interested to hear thoughts...

[krabby5]

I have troubles against the very aggressive players...It seems when I finally do take a stand against them, they have the nuts...

[DOTTT]

I've actually been using this tactic a lot lately, and it's been working great for me. I think to get the most out of it you need to have a tight aggressive image and be up against a player that is good enough lay down a marginal hand. I prefer doing this against lp raisers as opposed to ones from ep, just because a raise close to the button tends to be a steal attempt. I also wouldn't get too carried away with this because there's always the risk of running into a monster. I’ll take a stab at the pot on the flop if it’s checked to me, if I get called I’m usually done with the hand unless I improve.

[SossMan]

clearly you have to have a deep enough stack to do this...20-30x should be plenty deep if you are facing a 2.5-3x raise and you have position.

edit: and you don't have a reraising hand.

[woodguy]

Essentially you just described the way to play a big stack.

I think the most effective way to play the big stack is to call PF raises when you have position, then work to outplay the opponent on/after the flop. Especially effective when you significantly outchip your opponent.

Most flops miss everyone and using your opponents tightness and doubt against them works well.

I especially like to do this to the guy who hasn't played in 3-4 orbits waiting for a good hand. You can narrow down their holdings fairly well and if the flop comes rags, you can generally scare them off their hand, they almost always give you credit for a mid-big PP.

Of course you have to be able to lay it down if played back at, but it can work effectively to build your stack against the medium stacks.

The opponent I hate playing against most is the guy who never lets my steal-raising through to the blinds, but keeps calling me on the button or CO.

regards,
woodguy

[gergery]

I’d add 4 other qualifications.
1. you are a good reader
2. they are relatively easily read
3. they are fairly tight, or can be scared off stuff
4. you have a strong stomach, or brass balls

Hansen has said in interviews that he modifies his style to the players, and won’t play that way as much vs. people he thinks will call him down vs. people who he thinks are scared to play with him.

If Hansen and Negreanu are playing lots of pots and are successful at it over time, then when they get into a pot it is with worse cards. So they need to make it up from the steals, ie. getting other players to fold with better cards, and from others paying them off on their good hands generated by the looser image they acquire. But both of those chip generating tactics require higher than usual levels of knowing when to fold it and when to jam it.

It would also seem to have higher variance, hence the need for the metallic balls.

Also, If the blinds are say 200-400 and someone raises to 1200, and you have 10,000 (25xbb), you can raise to 3000 and get quite a few to fold, but still have lots life and/or get away from hand if you need to. So its seems like you really wouldn’t want to go all-in or fold vs. a raiser unless you were <~18BB, which is where the raise becomes >35-40% of your stack or so. I’m assuming you have a good hand here – 99, AQs kind of thing. Now, your opponent is betting 1200 to put you to a decision for all your chips –bet 3000 and put the decision to him.

For me, the people who give me the most trouble are the ones who just call my raises a couple times when I have good but not great hands

Well, I also hate playing against the ones that suck out on me repeatedly, but that’s a different thread….

[t_perkin]

I would add that your opponent has to have a good number of chips as well, otherwise he is going to push in on a lot of flops.

Also I would say that these circumstances generally come up less often in online play because the stacks are almost always small and you don't know your opponents as well as big name players often do.

just some thoughts

Tim

[TheJackal]

When I raise with MD PP or something like AJ and someone moves in on me, I fold. Usually it comes from the blinds, (Of course not always) but I agree with Sklansky because I feel I am a good enough tournament player that I do not have to take close gambles (I mean hands people will reraise all in with are either 50/50 to MD PP or AJ AQ are a favorite, but again not always because it's player dependent). I don't like to put all my chips in on one hand anyways, I like to build small pots, so playing against me you would have an edge.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
When I raise with MD PP or something like AJ and someone moves in on me, I fold. Usually it comes from the blinds, (Of course not always) but I agree with Sklansky because I feel I am a good enough tournament player that I do not have to take close gambles (I mean hands people will reraise all in with are either 50/50 to MD PP or AJ AQ are a favorite, but again not always because it's player dependent). I don't like to put all my chips in on one hand anyways, I like to build small pots, so playing against me you would have an edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, I'm pretty comfortable with making decisions when I am re-raised preflop. Laying down AJ or a MD pocket pair, is usually automatic unless the blinds are getting very high or the raiser is very aggressive and could put me on a straight steal. It's getting called by a player with position that gives me fits. What happens when Ax misses, or flops 2nd pair, top kicker? Obviously "it depends", but post-flop poker offers many more opportunities to make mistakes than preflop, where you can pretty easily get a good handle on your odds against the range of hands you might be up against.

[Tosh]

I hate playing against players that are better than me. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]