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#1
08-16-2004, 03:06 PM
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How important is the preflop raise?
I'm a new NL player (about 2 months). I play MTTs and online shootouts. I've done a lot of reading about the game.
If I am not raising before the flop, except later in the tournament in steal situations, am I making a mistake? Basic strategy seems to suggest raising almost all the time with premium hands and when you are the first in the pot. My current style of play is to limp in with anything, from aces to suited connectors. The idea is I want to see as many cheap flops as possible (as Freddy Deeb says, you cannot win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket), and I want to get away from hands when the flop does not suit me. Chances are the flop WILL miss my hand, so why invest more than you have to before the flop? My goal is to get very comfortable playing after the flop. I'll make my bets and bluffs on the turn and the river when I have most of the information I'm going to get on the hand. I don't want my tournaments to be governed by coin flip situations. I don't like to go all in, unless I am short stacked. I feel that not raising disguises my hand (I cannot be read if I always limp), which sometimes allows me to trap opponents for a big pot when I do flop a big hand, or my pocket pair are overcards to the board. The risk of course is that not raising allows too many people to play against me, and occasionally draw out on me. Not raising also makes it more difficult to read my opponents hands on the flop, as they could also have called with almost everything. As the tournament progresses and the blinds get bigger and bigger, I will be more inclined to raise. Is this a viable strategy? 
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#2
08-16-2004, 03:16 PM
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Re: How important is the preflop raise?
"My goal is to get very comfortable playing after the flop. I'll make my bets and bluffs on the turn and the river when I have most of the information I'm going to get on the hand."............Not raising also makes it more difficult to read my opponents hands on the flop, as they could also have called with almost everything.
You need to reconcile these two statements to realize that the benefits of your trikiness don't outweigh the risks. Unless you completely get run over by the cards, AND your opponents make second best hands against you AND they don't suck out on you when you happen to get all your chips in the middle with a favorite, I can't see this strategy working very often.
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#4
08-16-2004, 04:04 PM
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Re: How important is the preflop raise?
you will be doing a lot of limp/folding.
What happens if you only get a small piece of the flop? 4 to the flush? TPMK? If you are waiting for the set/straight/full house on the flop then good luck! Plus - if you never, never let out betting or raise, what do you think your opponents will do the 2nd you raise a pot or check raise? You don't think that would be a tell?
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#5
08-16-2004, 04:18 PM
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Re: How important is the preflop raise?
[ QUOTE ]
What happens if you only get a small piece of the flop? 4 to the flush? TPMK? [/ QUOTE ] I don't know what TPMK is, but I'd be inclined to play the 4-flush, particularly if the price is right and there are several players. [ QUOTE ] If you are waiting for the set/straight/full house on the flop then good luck! [/ QUOTE ] I'm not waiting for the nuts, just to connect on a flop. Or, to bluff at the pot on the flop or the turn, when I think the board has missed my opponent. [ QUOTE ] Plus - if you never, never let out betting or raise, what do you think your opponents will do the 2nd you raise a pot or check raise? You don't think that would be a tell? [/ QUOTE ] Well that could be useful too. If I limp for the first hour, then change gears and start raising preflop, I may be able to pick up a lot of pots before the flop.
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#6
08-16-2004, 04:25 PM
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Re: How important is the preflop raise?
TPMK - is Top Pair Medium Kicker
If your gonna limp in and chase after 1 pairs, and 4 flushes, good luck making it to the 2nd hour. I think you will slowly see your chips dwindle away 50-100 chips at a time. Also - if your not raising, and not putting your player on a hand, how will you know when the miss or hit the flop? And what do you do when you limp and then your raised 3BB? Do you call again?
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#7
08-16-2004, 04:49 PM
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Re: How important is the preflop raise?
[ QUOTE ]
If your gonna limp in and chase after 1 pairs, and 4 flushes, good luck making it to the 2nd hour. I think you will slowly see your chips dwindle away 50-100 chips at a time. [/ QUOTE ] Not paying to play 4-flushes and open end straights in tournaments is probably something I need to think a little more about. I may have been doing to much of that, trying to connect and break a player. As for pairs, I don't see how limping and playing a pair is worse than raising and then playing a pair. In fact, limping is cheaper when I miss the flop. [ QUOTE ] Also - if your not raising, and not putting your player on a hand, how will you know when the miss or hit the flop? [/ QUOTE ] That is the primary problem, and may be the reason I have to give up this style of play. Raising pre-flop will allow me to narrow the holdings of my opponents somewhat, although it also tells them something about my hand. [ QUOTE ] And what do you do when you limp and then your raised 3BB? Do you call again? [/ QUOTE ] I'd only call with my best hands.
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#8
08-16-2004, 05:12 PM
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Re: How important is the preflop raise?
[ QUOTE ]
As for pairs, I don't see how limping and playing a pair is worse than raising and then playing a pair. In fact, limping is cheaper when I miss the flop. [/ QUOTE ] In a Multi pot top pair is less likely to be good when you get any pressure. [ QUOTE ] That is the primary problem, and may be the reason I have to give up this style of play. Raising pre-flop will allow me to narrow the holdings of my opponents somewhat, although it also tells them something about my hand. [/ QUOTE ] This is why you don't change your raise to your hand strength. If you open raise with a bigger range of hands for the Standard 3Xbb, the other players will have a very hard time putting you on a hand. [ QUOTE ] I'd only call with my best hands. [/ QUOTE ] If your hand is good enough to call a raise, you should be open raising everytime from a favorable position. Thats just good poker.
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#9
08-16-2004, 10:21 PM
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Re: How important is the preflop raise?
RunRyan-
I am posting these questions as possible holes to your stragey. You asked for advice, and myself and a couple others have given it. If you choose to Defend yourself against our advice, that's fine, but if that's the case, what was the point of this post?
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#10
08-16-2004, 10:50 PM
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Re: How important is the preflop raise?
[ QUOTE ]
RunRyan- I am posting these questions as possible holes to your stragey. You asked for advice, and myself and a couple others have given it. If you choose to Defend yourself against our advice, that's fine, but if that's the case, what was the point of this post? [/ QUOTE ] This is a discussion board. You ask questions, and I answer them. That's a discussion. I'm not here to simply take advice, but instead to think out loud. I'll learn more that way. Anyway, you may be happy to know I've changed my play and got back to standard 3xBB raises preflop. Doing so, I won a single table shootout online tonight, so I feel I'm back on the right track. Thanks.
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