big mistake? or little one?

[dumb ox]

Looking back, I'm pretty sure it's a mistake not to raise the flop with this size pot. Is this a huge mistake, or just a minor one? (If the pot was somewhat smaller, would it still be a mistake, is the question).

MP1 is normally passive. Button is very loose aggressive. No other reads.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (16 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, Button folds, SB calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (9.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, MP1 calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

[nothumb]

So you describe yourself as loose-aggressive?

With limpers ahead I would limp with this. Not strong enough to raise; I think you welcome players behind you more than you want to shut them out.

I think you should go ahead and raise the flop, because people don't even expect to hear from the queen yet.

However, I don't think it's an awful slow play. I might have done this too, depending on my mood.

NT

[Avatar]

I think you played the hand fine. I call the flop and try to collect overcalls, and now raise the turn, with the pfr'er on my right, to make someone with a gutshot incorrect drawing odds. The problem with raising the flop is you do not give someone total incorrect drawing odds. You're giving them about 8:1 and that is more than enough against you in this hand to make up for the 11.5:1 effective odds needed because your going to have to pay them off when they hit.

In other words, the implied odds are there for someone with J-10 to cold-call 2 on the flop, but neither effective or implied odds are there to cold-call 2 large bets on the turn.

Make sense?

[dumb ox]

Yeah, I did the right thing for the wrong reason. Your post helps a lot, thanks.

[Evan]

Avatar explained it perfectly (or at least the way I would've). Good raise on the turn even when the possible straight card hits. Even if you get 3-bet by the SB there, assuming MP calls, you're still getting over 17-1 to either fill up of catch your gutshot which you only need a little over 5-1. Well played even if it was for the wrong reasons.

[TJD]

I am in a small minority here.

I would raise the flop. I am not in the slightest interested in waiting for the turn to knock out players. I have a pretty good hand. Vulnerable? Yes! However, my raise on the flop confronts gutshots with 9.5:1. How happy should they be with the implied odds to make up the deficit? Well, normally it would be fine but with trips out there it must be close at least.

Are the players behind more likely to call 2 on the flop or the turn? We know the answer to that. You never know, I might even be reraised; yummy!! (What does THAT do to the gutshots odds when I cap?)

My preference in this situation is to make the pot even bigger. If they fold to my flop raise, then I have fewer opponents and that is OK. If they call (or reraise), then that is even better [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I think this "waiting for the turn to raise" is best used when you have a "marginal" made hand. Pesonally, I do not consider trips as marginal.

Does Ed want to comment as all this confusion is clearly his fault [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]?

Great book by the way. I have recovered its cost many times over already (can I have that $100 now please? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

T

[Boylermaker]

I'm with you..I raise the flop here, for the reasons you stated.