Introduction/ Question

[reidy182]

Thought i'd introduce myself, as I'm new to this forum, I have posted at other forums but none are anywhere near as good as this one, whilst introducing myself I thought I'd better ask a question, here goes:

What types of starting hands do people most value in micro limits, with over 8 callers preflop, and what type of hand would you say was good to bet on after the flop.

The reason I ask is that although I am making money at micro limits (10/20c and 25/50c) I feel I could much more.

From my limited (around 8 months and 500 hours) experience, I see most hands are won by at least 2 pair, so should I bet on the flop when I have top pair? Or just call, as someone else will probably bet.

If I do bet on the flop say with a pair of queens, I find I am called to the showdown very often, with what was a subordinate hand turned good on the turn or river, I know this is likely to happen, where there are 3 or 4 that see the river card, but how can I combat this, I have tried charging these draws by raising although this isn't very effective in limit poker.

Should I just not bet with top pair, unless it's checked around, and the turn does not bring a straight/flush draw.

Thanks for any help, this is driving me crazy!

[Nemesis]

what books have you read first of all? And you should definately be betting with top pair good kicker.

[Goon2]

I am not a poker authority, although I do play 25/50c on UB exclusively. That being said, I'll procede:

Advice, as always, depends on the flop. If you have top pair and a good kicker, I don't see how you can't bet it unless you have reason to believe you're trailing the hand to a made straight or flush. If you see the flop and figure someone is drawing to straight or flush, you are the favorite, so you must punish the draws by betting on the flop (thereby making it expensive for them to draw against you when you are the favorite). Raising may or may not drive them out, but it's the right play. Make it expensive for them (this does not mean you should cap, though).

If someone has the same pair as you, you should figure yourself a favorite because you shouldn't be playing hands that will get you into kicker trouble (such as A6 [unless suited and in late position]). In that case, bet it.

Often in the 25/50 games you'll have some maniac who calls you down to the river and beats you. This happened to me the other night. I had 2 pair, aces and jacks, but was beaten by a set of 7's when a 7 fell on the river (22.5 to 1). Although beaten, I played the hand correctly, and will win money making that play in the long run.

If you can't raise with QQ or bet/raise the flop with top pair top kicker (TPTK), when will you raise? The answer is only when you have the nuts, which will make you a tight/passive player, which is not what you want to be.

Welcome to this forum. I find it to be a terrific place to learn poker.

[tardigrade]

Hi reidy...

For the most part, the best hands in a loose game are the same as the best hands in a tight game. But in a loose game, you can play more marginal hands like low pocket pairs, midrange suited connectors/1-gaps, etc. as you begin seeing many players to every flop and you know they play poorly after the flop. You can also aggressively play decent hands like AJo, KQo, etc.

As far as post-flop play is concerned, I've struggled with this a bit myself, but found that in the long run, you *must* bet and raise when you are probably ahead (e.g. overpair on an uncoordinated flop). While there is a much larger chance you will get outdrawn than in a tighter game (so you will win less frequently), you will win much bigger pots when you do win.

The flip side of this is that, as pots become giant, you can increase your winnings (at the expense of higher variance) by staying in with more extreme draws (mid-pair, gutshots, runner-runner) as long as the pot odds are in your favor.

Basically, some of the fancy strategic plays lose value in these games and the "gambling" aspect is magnified. But if you're willing to gamble, you basically get to pick your odds, and can be assured a pretty good margin in the long run.

[Joe Rees]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not a poker authority, although I do play 25/50c on UB exclusively. That being said, I'll procede:

Advice, as always, depends on the flop. If you have top pair and a good kicker, I don't see how you can't bet it unless you have reason to believe you're trailing the hand to a made straight or flush. If you see the flop and figure someone is drawing to straight or flush, you are the favorite, so you must punish the draws by betting on the flop (thereby making it expensive for them to draw against you when you are the favorite). Raising may or may not drive them out, but it's the right play. Make it expensive for them (this does not mean you should cap, though).

If someone has the same pair as you, you should figure yourself a favorite because you shouldn't be playing hands that will get you into kicker trouble (such as A6 [unless suited and in late position]). In that case, bet it.

Often in the 25/50 games you'll have some maniac who calls you down to the river and beats you. This happened to me the other night. I had 2 pair, aces and jacks, but was beaten by a set of 7's when a 7 fell on the river (22.5 to 1). Although beaten, I played the hand correctly, and will win money making that play in the long run.

If you can't raise with QQ or bet/raise the flop with top pair top kicker (TPTK), when will you raise? The answer is only when you have the nuts, which will make you a tight/passive player, which is not what you want to be.

Welcome to this forum. I find it to be a terrific place to learn poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Newbie here, but wanted to throw in my $.02. Totally agree here. You must bet top pair even with a weak kicker to find out where you are in the hand. You could win the pot right there if everyone misses, you build the pot for yourself if others are drawing and miss, and you define the strength of your hand. However, if you check-raise the flop, you might be able to see the river for free as often it will check around to the raiser giving you the option of checking or betting.

[reidy182]

Thanks for all your suggestions and comments, I have some pretty good theory behind me as I have read WLLHE and HEFAP a couple of times. I realise I have much to learn, and am definitely willing to do so, which is why I came here, I have also ordered the small stakes book (can't remember exact name) by Ed.

I understand that low limit has a massive variance in comparison to other limits in hold 'em (as a percentage) and maybe this is why my top pair with top kicker isn't holding up most of the time, maybe the variance (luck) has been against me the last few days/weeks.

I believe that the players at the 10/20, 25/50 are quite poor players, I play pacific poker and i'll only join the table if the flop percentage is 70% or above, as I'm sure this will maximise profits from winning hands, this again, increases variance.

It's so damn frustrating when you lose $10 in the 25/50 rooms when you know you are a better playing than any of those guys sat at that table, I lose faith in my play often, which is why I cry for help, I wanna be told I'm doing the right thing.

[Greg J]

If you see the flop and figure someone is drawing to straight or flush, you are the favorite, so you must punish the draws by betting on the flop (thereby making it expensive for them to draw against you when you are the favorite). Raising may or may not drive them out, but it's the right play. Make it expensive for them (this does not mean you should cap, though).

This is partially correct. It is true that giving a free card to draws when you have TP is a HUGE, BAD, and HORRIBLE mistake, so you don't do it. However, the more important reason to bet here is more straighforward: you probably have the best hand. Let's say you have

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] preflop in MP. You raise with 5 callers.

Flop is 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] k [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB bets, UTG calls, you raise. Why? You are very likely to be ahead. You are NOT raising because there are two hearts on the board, you are raising because your hand is strong (TPTK).

Make it expensive for them...

I'm not trying to pick on you goon, but this is not correct. Let's say you switch bodies to a player acting after MP in this hand (the guy with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]), and you have A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Are you mad MP raised? You shouldnt be. Infact, you should 3 bet this hand! You shoudl not mind being "charged" b/c have a strong draw to the nut hand, and even though you will make it less than 50% of the time, it is still a money making situation in the long term. You are not, after all, charging yourself are you? No, you are making an investment that will pay you off in the long run.

(Incidentally, this is also a good play for MP, since he has the stronger hand right now. The other 3 players are the ones losing here in terms of odds).

Ed Miller has a post about this somewhere -- does anyone have the link?

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Greg

[Goon2]

[ QUOTE ]
If you see the flop and figure someone is drawing to straight or flush, you are the favorite, so you must punish the draws by betting on the flop (thereby making it expensive for them to draw against you when you are the favorite). Raising may or may not drive them out, but it's the right play. Make it expensive for them (this does not mean you should cap, though).

This is partially correct. It is true that giving a free card to draws when you have TP is a HUGE, BAD, and HORRIBLE mistake, so you don't do it. However, the more important reason to bet here is more straighforward: you probably have the best hand. Let's say you have

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] preflop in MP. You raise with 5 callers.

Flop is 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] k [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB bets, UTG calls, you raise. Why? You are very likely to be ahead. You are NOT raising because there are two hearts on the board, you are raising because your hand is strong (TPTK).

Make it expensive for them...

I'm not trying to pick on you goon, but this is not correct. Let's say you switch bodies to a player acting after MP in this hand (the guy with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]), and you have A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Are you mad MP raised? You shouldnt be. Infact, you should 3 bet this hand! You shoudl not mind being "charged" b/c have a strong draw to the nut hand, and even though you will make it less than 50% of the time, it is still a money making situation in the long term. You are not, after all, charging yourself are you? No, you are making an investment that will pay you off in the long run.

(Incidentally, this is also a good play for MP, since he has the stronger hand right now. The other 3 players are the ones losing here in terms of odds).

Ed Miller has a post about this somewhere -- does anyone have the link?

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg,

Thanks for picking on me. This helps me learn.

I see what you are saying, and I agree. Big pots are good for guys on a draw because the odds make it right for them to call.

I think my general point was to not give away free cards to people on a draw when you are ahead.

[tardigrade]

[ QUOTE ]
Ed Miller has a post about this somewhere -- does anyone have the link?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's Ed's excellent post on the subject. When I read this, it really opened up a concept to me that I sort of knew but never really understood: how in a multi-way pot with cards yet to come you can have more than one player who benefits from bets/raises going into the pot. I always used to think of it like one player is ahead, so the rest are behind and therefore just want to call or fold depending on pot odds. But that's not true. You can have multiple players ahead of the odds that are each benefitting a different amount from all of the bets that everyone that is truly behind is donating. Anyway, it's a great post. Here it is...

Charging the flush draws