Question about a mucked hand.

[msb]

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BTW, the principle is COMPLETELY different for several reasons. In the WSOP situation, the cards were shown and it was a DEALER error, not a player mucking his cards b/c he thought he lost. The situations are completely different, the player in the WSOP didn't have anyting to bitch about b/c he didn't do anything wrong, it was completely a dealer error.

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Well, Stew, I agree the situation was completely different (I think I even said as much) but the principle I was talking about was that either way... cards talk.

I also agree that if it was a tourney or something, then you have to play strictly by the rules, but I assumed this was a friendly game in a guy's basement.

[SpeakEasy]

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There is a difference b/w throwing cards face down in front of you and them being thrown in the muck. A hand is not legally dead until it touches the muck OR any other dead cards. That is specifically why I asked the question.

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Be careful acting on this advice. Here is my recent example to the contrary at a casino:

One-table $50 buy-in NL hold 'em tournament at Harrahs KC last Friday. Down to 2 players, I am heads up. The blinds quickly got ridiculously high (600-1200) in relation to the stacks (roughly 5000-5000), so we're both playing cautiously. In the SB, I have a junk hand (think it was 64o), so I just match the BB. BB checks. I do not pair on the board, and the hand goes check, check, check, check all the way through the river. The board is A-Q-9-7-9.

Dealer says "show 'em."

Other player says, "A pair," without showing his cards.

I say, "Beats me," and I toss my hand face down toward the dealer. My hand did not touch any other cards (I'm in the #2 seat, a ways away from the dealer), and I simply tossed them face down in the direction of the dealer about 8 inches in front of me. It was not an exaggerated motion, but it clearly looked like I was abandoning my hand combined with my single statement "Beats me."

Other player turns over a junk hand, something like 42o. I quickly realize that by "pair" he meant the pair on board and that he's simply playing the board, like me.

I reach for my cards to turn them over, because I'm also playing the board and we have a split pot.

Dealer grabs my cards before I can and he says, "I have to take that as a fold." He quickly mixes them into the muck.

I didn't protest, mainly because I realized how stupid my move was immediately after it all happened, and because the game was generally going well and I didn't want to bring things to a screeching halt while we argued over the rules of folding a hand.

The point is, your hand can be deemed folded even when your cards don't touch anything (don't touch "the muck," or any other cards), but you've acted as if you've folded by tossing them toward the dealer. At least this seems to be the rule at Harrahs.

Lesson learned. (I later placed second when the blinds forced our hands -- his 22 beat my Q6 at the end.)

Home rules can be what you want, but based on my experience in this tourney, the guy folded when he made an action as if he were folding.

[Stew]

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There is a difference b/w throwing cards face down in front of you and them being thrown in the muck. A hand is not legally dead until it touches the muck OR any other dead cards. That is specifically why I asked the question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful acting on this advice. Here is my recent example to the contrary at a casino:

One-table $50 buy-in NL hold 'em tournament at Harrahs KC last Friday. Down to 2 players, I am heads up. The blinds quickly got ridiculously high (600-1200) in relation to the stacks (roughly 5000-5000), so we're both playing cautiously. In the SB, I have a junk hand (think it was 64o), so I just match the BB. BB checks. I do not pair on the board, and the hand goes check, check, check, check all the way through the river. The board is A-Q-9-7-9.

Dealer says "show 'em."

Other player says, "A pair," without showing his cards.

I say, "Beats me," and I toss my hand face down toward the dealer. My hand did not touch any other cards (I'm in the #2 seat, a ways away from the dealer), and I simply tossed them face down in the direction of the dealer about 8 inches in front of me. It was not an exaggerated motion, but it clearly looked like I was abandoning my hand combined with my single statement "Beats me."

Other player turns over a junk hand, something like 42o. I quickly realize that by "pair" he meant the pair on board and that he's simply playing the board, like me.

I reach for my cards to turn them over, because I'm also playing the board and we have a split pot.

Dealer grabs my cards before I can and he says, "I have to take that as a fold." He quickly mixes them into the muck.

I didn't protest, mainly because I realized how stupid my move was immediately after it all happened, and because the game was generally going well and I didn't want to bring things to a screeching halt while we argued over the rules of folding a hand.

The point is, your hand can be deemed folded even when your cards don't touch anything (don't touch "the muck," or any other cards), but you've acted as if you've folded by tossing them toward the dealer. At least this seems to be the rule at Harrahs.

Lesson learned. (I later placed second when the blinds forced our hands -- his 22 beat my Q6 at the end.)

Home rules can be what you want, but based on my experience in this tourney, the guy folded when he made an action as if he were folding.

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There is no lesson learned here at all. Well, there is and that is simply that the dealer was wrong. Until he makes your hand dead by touching it to the muck it is not dead. You should have protested and called the floor. In fact, the more I think of this, the more it stands to reason that you should indeed have split the pot b/c the player's best hand was the board. Once he showed his hand, you could have claimed that your hand was the board and the pot awarded as a split.

This actually is written about in the latest issue of Cardplyaer by Daniel Negrenau. Similar scenario, a straight is on the board at the river. Player A checks, Danny bets, Player calls. Danny flips over his cards and announces "Straight" (He's playing the board). Player A looks at his cards and mucks them. Nothing is said by anyone at the table. Pot awarded to Danny. The difference here is that Danny represented his hand accurately, Player A was an idiot.

In your scenario, the player mis-represented a hand and didn't have what he claimed. Therefore, when he shows his card and his hand is the board, I think you have a right to half the pot as you are playing the board also.

Either way, the dealer is clearly wrong in your scenario, your cards are not dead UNTIL they touch the muck. If you look at Robert's Rules of Poker or the TDA rules, one of the rules you will see is that a hand is not dead until it touches the muck. In fact, in the TDA rules, the dealer is instructed to make all folded hands DEAD by touching the muck prior to awarding the pot to any player.

With all this being said, I had a similar scenario occur at The Flamingo, the second time I ever played cards in a cardroom.

At the river, I have a straight, my opponent had bet and I called as the board was paired. Anyway, my opponent shows a pocket pair for two pair. I flip over my cards and say, "King High Straight". Dealer then proceeds to push the pot to my opponent AFTER making my hand dead by touching the muck. I say, "Wait, I had a straight." Dealer says, "I'm sorry honey, I ddin't see it". The dealer was some old lady. I say, "Well that isn't my fault, I showed my hand and had a straight". One other player at the table said they saw it. She still would not push the pot back to me. I call the floor, tell him what I have and he fishes through the muck and reproduces my cards which were together, right under the winning players hand. This was after some arguing. My opponent at this time says he'll split it with me. The floor asks if that's OK. I say, yes that would be OK, but I'm being penalized for a dealer error. The one thing I did learn in this situation is to place your fingers on top of your cards and not release them until you either A) Have been awarded the pot or B) are sure you should not be awarded the pot.

[SpeakEasy]

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The one thing I did learn in this situation is to place your fingers on top of your cards and not release them until you either A) Have been awarded the pot or B) are sure you should not be awarded the pot.

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Excellent advice. I will start doing this. I'm learning from my mistakes. Good to know the rules on this issue because I've seen other similar goofs -- about once a session -- by players and dealers on hands that I did not play.