Relative position when protecting your hand

[Griffin]

I hate to ask another question about protecting your hand, but this concept represents a radical change from my current playing style and I know it is a critical one that must be understood. I thank you guys for your patience.

The short version of my question is this....

If you are raising a flop bet in order to protect your marginal hand (say middle pair with an overcard and a backdoor flush draw), in what way does the location of the first bet, and the number of callers it gets, affect the decision to raise?

Example: (long version)

Let's say you post in the cutoff and have Q7s. A total of eight players see the flop, including the blinds.

Flop (8sb): J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (one of your suit)

If it is checked to the guy to your right who bets, your raise charges six players two bets to see the turn. What if the first bet comes from EP and gets three callers to you? Now your raise would only charge three players. What if the first bet comes from SB, gets four callers, and you can only charge the Button?

I don't really want an answer to these specific examples, nor am I looking for a specific percentage (e.g., 'if you can charge half or more of your opponents two bets, then raise'). I am more trying to understand how the number of "already called" and "still-to-act" players should factor into the decision to fold/bet/raise.

In the examples located in SSH, the bet usually comes from Hero's right which makes the raise clear-cut. In fact, in the intro to the quizzes, Ed states that that there are no questions where the answer is a close decision between two plays. Are the Hero's relative position to the initial bet, and the number of callers, factors that affect the "closeness" of a decision to raise?

[Randy Burgess]

I am going to open my big fat mouth and say that you are overlooking a crucial factor in your new example - as compared to the previous Q7s example, you now have great position to work with.

[Ed Miller]

Are the Hero's relative position to the initial bet, and the number of callers, factors that affect the "closeness" of a decision to raise?

Yes. Take the example on p.148. You have 87s and call the button's raise from the big blind (six-handed). Flop comes T75 two clubs. You check. It is checked to the button who bets. You should raise.

But if instead someone on your left bet (not necessarily the player immediately on your left... one or even two to the left of him is probably ok too), and everyone in between you and the bettor called, then raising doesn't make much sense. At that point you should simply call.

There are already three or four people committed to their hands, raising could get reraised, etc. You will probably have to improve to win (whereas that wasn't clear at all in the first example... the button could have been betting overcards and you might end up with the best hand with the sevens). So just calling makes sense.

Raising does two important things in the first scenario:
1. Increases your chance to win unimproved.
2. Improves your chance to win when you improve.

Generally, the first factor is significantly more important than the second. After three people call, eh.. just try to improve cheaply.

[Vern]

I think if you already have a flop bettor and several callers, you cannot raise to protect your hand anymore because you will be unable to limit the field. Once the action in front of you makes it obvious that you will not be able to limit he field, you have to look at your hand as a weak draw getting great odds in position and play it that way.

Vern

[Griffin]

Edited because I was wrong [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Thanks Ed. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I'm loving this advanced poker class!!