Possible colluders in a home game?

[LetsRock]

I'm involved with a great group of people who play in a weekly NL Hold'em home game. The core group is a lot of fun and we've never had any problems of any kind.

Last week we had a couple of new players come to the game. We were running a 2 table tourney and welcomed 2 fresh bodies.

These 2 busted out of the tourney pretty early, but in the cash games that followed, these 2 guys had a very strange pattern about them. I'm not sure if they were just complete idiots and one of them was running hot (he was) or if they were working us. (One guy left well ahead, the other broke, but the winner's take wasn't a whole lot ahead of their combined buy-ins.)

It didn't occur to me til the next day (I was very tired from a long day) that something felt odd about their patterns. With the exception of one part of the session (And they were both running cold during that stretch), these guys always sat in the same position related to each other (even after a couple of table changes) - Player A (the big winner) just to the left of PLayer B. (For the tourney, they happened to be randomly seated that way.)

On many occasions, Player A would limp re-raise from early or middle position after several players had come in and a late position player would raise (one guy was constantly raising). Then player B would double player A's raise making it a really stupid call unless the rest of us had very premium cards. It would often wind up with the two of them head's up and many times, Player B had pretty poor cards (one time he had something like a 54o). They would keep betting, when they had the pot head's up (which seemed to make their play "clean" at the time) and usually Player A would bust his buddy. They also would take "planned" smoke breaks together outside my garage, even though many of us were smoking in the garage as were they.

I spoke with the other solid, experienced players who were there and none of us could clearly put a finger on collusion, but we all felt that the possibility was there. We're going to invite them back and watch them really closely this week (we'll have 4 sets of eyes on them).

I don't have a lot of experience with possible cheaters. One of our experienced players is confident that he can spot their ploy quickly if they're up to something, but I don't know exectly what to look for. They could have been kicking each other under the table or just using that betting pattern as a signal.

Has anyone ever witnessed such a paattern? What specifically are we looking for to bust them if we do suspect that they're working us?

Thanks for any input.

[TomCollins]

Did you ever see him reraise 45o or other crap at any other point? This sounds like colluders that just suck. I wouldn't bother inviting them back, unless all of you collude against them.

[ohgeetee]

randomize the seating in the cash games. if they get next to each other or one person between them, keep a close eye on them.

I'd also give it another go and see if they just really suck. they might be exactly what you are looking for and you guys just need to alter your play a bit against them.

[The Armchair]

I see two possible explanations:
1) They're colluding, and they're bad at it.
2) They're friends. When one limp-raises the other, ego steps in and they get into a pissing match.

I'd go with the latter.

As for seat randomizing... well, I think it's a bad idea. If you were colluding, wouldn't you sit as far away from the other person as possible? I'd want to catch as much dead money as I could in the cross-fire.

[Nate Finch]

Definitely randomize seating in any game. I think the number one question is, who invited these guys, and how well does that person know them? I started a poker game and a friend of mine invites people from his work all the time. I rely on him to make sure the people he brings are trustworthy. So far, they aren't winning anything, so I'm not worried about collusion [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

You said they didn't really go home with much more than they came with... I wouldn't worry about it yet, in that case. If they start going home with more and more, then you need to worry. Chances are, they are both new to the game, like sparring against each other, and sit next to each other because they don't know many other people at the place.

-Nate

[SenecaJim]

Yeah, I agree with the good friends over bad colluders at this point. If it gets really suspicious i'm more one to confront than assume guilt. Like the post with jerk in the home game, I just tell the guy he's actin like an a$$. I've done it. This one I would be a little less direct, but throw out a comment and look for reaction..like, "Hey, sure seems like you raise to him and lose all the time, whazup with that." or some such thing. If they suck at colluding, probably suck at being cagey as well. Meantime, since you are a smoker too, just say wait up, I'll have one with you.

[jmark]

When they reraise each other and get it headsup, are they laughing and happy or trying to be very serious. If they're just trying to put moves on each other I would think they would be smiling and having a good time.

You could always put a webcam under the table and watch for them playing footsie.

[LetsRock]

Thanks for all the replies.

Nobody in our group knew them, they found us over the internet.

The guy with bad cards rarely had anything that would have been worth a monster re-raise. Like I said, I wasn't paying that close attention.

They acted real serious when they went at it. They were high-fiving each other like they were rewarding themselves for a good battle fought.


We don't do random seating in our cash games. PEople just come and sit down and there's rarely any jockying for a particular position. We have a fun game and have never had any problems.

We'll have our spidey senses focused on them this week. I hope that they are just stupid fish, but we'll run their asses out if it turns out that they are working it.

[Nate Finch]

I think the key is to pay close attention to how they bet, and what happens after they get down to just the two of them. See if they change their tactics when it's the two of them as opposed to when it's against someone else. Does the idiot with bad cards do the same thing versus other people? If he does, well, he's just bad. Some newbies think bluffing and draws are the be-all and end-all of poker.

Oh, and a thought - do you like the guys? I mean, generally I can tell pretty quickly who I'm going to like, who's neutral, and who I'm going to have problems with.... if you really don't see any reason to like the guys, kick them to the curb. A couple extra warm bodies that you don't even like just aren't worth it.

-Nate