Too Aggressive on draw?

toby · #1 07-27-2004, 03:46 PM

Flush draw plus gutshot draw. With the second raise, I might be chopping if I catch a 10 for the straight. Was this the right move? Only read is UTG+1 is pretty solid but capable of folding.

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed)

Hero ($21.10)
CO ($15.25)
Button ($15.70)
SB ($18.25)
BB ($23.10)
UTG ($27)
UTG+1 ($53.05)
MP1 ($27.70)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.5, UTG+1 calls $0.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.5, CO calls $0.5, 2 folds, BB checks

Flop: ($2.75) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $0.5, UTG+1 raises to $1, Hero calls $1, CO raises to $3, BB folds, UTG calls $2.50, UTG+1 calls $2, Hero raises to $17.65, CO calls $11.75 (All-In), UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $14.65.

Pot at $55.80

Final Pot: $61.70
Main Pot: $50, between Hero, CO and UTG+1.
Pot 2: $11.70, between Hero and UTG+1.

DerrekL · #2 07-27-2004, 05:59 PM

I think getting all your chips in the middle with this draw is perfect. You have 9 outs to the flush, 4 outs to the straight, and maybe even the 3 other kings will give you victory. 16 outs is FANTASTIC and going all-in on the flop is perfect in a cash game. Even if we're less optimistic and put your outs at 13 you're looking pretty good. The only time you're in really bad shape is if someone else holds the nut flush draw and another has trips. Remember, in a cash game, unlike a tourney you always want to get alot of money in the pot when you're a favorite, even if you're only favored by 1% ( that is unless your bankroll can't handle the swings involved ).

Huskiez · #3 07-27-2004, 06:30 PM

I think this line is okay, but I think it would be a lot better if you had A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] instead of K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. That way you can be sure of your outs, and that you're not up against a better flush draw. I guess however, if that third spade were to hit, your money would be going in regardless.

UTG+1 being able to fold is not really good either, as with a great draw you want a lot of callers. I think you'd either want all three to fold right there or for all of them to call. Two callers is not too bad.

I guess all in all not a bad play, especially considering if any of your outs hit, it will be blatantly obvious. However it is Party, so you never know if they will still pay you off.

SkippingGoat · #4 07-27-2004, 06:59 PM

I think Huskiez more or less hit the nail on the head here whereas I think Derrek is a little over enthusiastic about a push. A push here is not going to get the field to fold. In fact, you'll probably get get multiple callers (which is much better than 1 caller). Overall, I'd say with the money in the pot and the expectation of multiple callers that pushing is slightly +EV. However, as muchg as one hates to chase, calling $2 here probably isn't a bad play. With that many people in the pot you'll probably get a least one person to play with you if you hit your flush.

Ultimately, by far your best move is to fold K9s preflop. You're going to make either a non-nut straight, a non-nut flush, or a pair of kings with a crappy kicker. Think about it, the flop was nearly perfect for you here and your position was still marginal at best.

DerrekL · #5 07-28-2004, 04:01 PM

I might be a bit enthusiastic, however, the case against drawing is more important in tourneys. In a cash game if your draw will hit 54% over two cards there is nothing wrong with getting your money in the center, especially if you're going to get multiple loose callers.

Another note: it is really hard to give correct preflop advice in NL. One huge key to winning no limit is knowing how much another player will call off and/or lose to you when you hit a hand. If you hit two pair with 2-4 and you know you can win 75 bets from an opponent if he hits top pair top kicker then playing 2-4 is fine.

SayGN · #6 07-28-2004, 04:29 PM

Huskiez, do you go to UCONN? I'm going to be a sophomore there this year

JrJordan · #7 07-28-2004, 04:48 PM

I'll point out a few observations:

Preflop: Muck this sucker preflop. I wouldn't even play this in the small blind. The problem is that there is no flop other than two pair that you're really comfortable seeing. 2 spades give you a flush draw, but not to the nuts. A flopped K leaves you with a crappy kicker, and a top card of 9 leaves a million outs for anyone who plays along. Easy muck.

Flop: Wow, talk about the nice flop. Gutshot straight draw and 2nd nut flush draw. You get a little bit of action in front of you; a minbet, followed by minraise, followed by a less than potsized reraise. This table must be damn weak. They are giving you great odds to call for your draws, assuming everyone else calls along as well. Why not just call the bet? Your massive overbet doesn't do much to help you. It limits the field when you want lots of callers, and will most likely only be called by someone who has a made hand. Considering the reraies before you, I don't think you're going to take this pot down. See the turn card for cheap and then punish them for giving you a chance to draw on them.

DerrekL · #8 07-28-2004, 08:45 PM

I see you recommend folding the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
What hands do you recommend playing from mid position in a NL cash game? Why?

DerrekL · #9 07-28-2004, 09:11 PM

Why call?
Let's say, like most of you agree, you'll get 2 players to follow you all-in.

Let's say one of em has aces and the other has q-j - your a favorite and want all that money in the pot:
http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b...qd%0D%0A%0D%0A
You'll win 48% but you're getting 2 to 1 on this bet alone, not to mention some additional money that's trapped.

Let's say one has two pair and the other has a-j - you're even with the two pair and will win about 41% of the time, but again you're getting 2 to 1 on your bet so it's well worth it.
http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b...ad%0D%0A%0D%0A

How about a more extreme example, one guy has trips, 8-8, and the other a flopped straight, 9-10. Most would admit it's unlikely that's what happened here but still you're not losing that much by moving all-in. With the trapped money from folders you will only be a bit -ev. Here you're going to win 26.10% and tie about 5%
http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b...td%0D%0A%0D%0A

Let's say you'll get 3 callers and they have 10-10, A-J, and 7-8:
http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b...7c%0D%0A%0D%0A
Assuming all 3 call getting 3 to 1 on your current bet you'd definately want to be all-in.

Additionally, if you push in these situations with draws and people see it, they'll be more likely to call you when you make sets and other big hands because they might suspect you have a draw.