Protecting your hand question

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

The correct play is for hero to fold that hand preflop even if there isn't a raise. Cold-calling a raise with it is (I can't think of language strong enough to convey this) hideously terrible play.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I understand the point of the flop raise, but I have a bigger issue with this hand. Does the writer not do the new player a disservice by using this as an example? This is a hand that should have been in the muck preflop even in an unraised pot. Doesn't this example make a new player think "OK, I now understand that if I cold-call a raise preflop with Qxs I can make this fancy play later and win."

Wait a minute. This is from *your* book???

[sthief09]

the money already in the pot is like a head start, or a bonus. if you win the hand, you win all future bets AND you win the pot. if there was no pot to win, then you'd ideally want to only raise if you felt it was likely you have the best hand and will have the best hand.

but there is a pot. you don't have to win 50% of the time for plays to be profitable. basically the pot is your margin for error.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I realize all this now, but my reaction before still holds. I think I know enough about human nature to believe that there will be X% of the readers out there who will start cold-calling raises with Qxs because they now "know" a way to get the most out of the hand post-flop.

[RickDecker]

I'm just curious. What if the Jack on the Flop was a Spade? I would be inclined to fold that Flop. What do others think?

[Griffin]

I think I know enough about human nature to believe that there will be X% of the readers out there who will start cold-calling raises with Qxs because they now "know" a way to get the most out of the hand post-flop.

The text makes it very clear that the preflop coldcall is a mistake. Ed is using the two mistakes (the coldcall and the flop call) to illustrate that of the two, the flop call is the bigger mistake.

Elsewhere in the text he clearly discusses the relative costs of preflop versus postflop mistakes.

If there is an X% who do that, it will be a very small number of people who didn't read the book thoroughly.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

That sounds reasonable. I'll accept the fact that since I haven't read the book, just this thread, that I've missed a good deal of context. That and I'm sure Ed didn't mean to mislead anyone.

Besides, however small, that X% is welcome in any game I'm in. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[stir]

You have a point. Many readers will miss the fact that as Ed explains in this thread Hero made a mistake pre-flop and instead think NPA is reccommending a type of p-f play.

[Griffin]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just curious. What if the Jack on the Flop was a Spade?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if BB bets and UTG+1 raises?

What if Hero is holding 99 instead of Q7?

What if Hero is holding Q7o instead of Q7s?

These are the types of questions that I have to figure out before I will feel comfortable that I'm using the raise instead of fold play correctly.

The book has the answers, but I'm going to have to read it one or two (or seven) more times to absorb it all.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

The flop raise part is easy. The preflop raiser can have a range of hands, about half of which you're behind (you're way behind JJ) and about half of which you're ahead of. You are likely a bigger dog against the entire field, but they will probably not call a double bet. Thus by raising, you increase the probability that you will win the hand even though you may not have the best hand now. Obviously, your dream scenario is that the raiser has AQ and Q falls on the turn. Regardless, you now have a chance to push him off AK or TT on the turn, or improve and beat his big pair.