Protecting your hand question

[Griffin]

In SSH page 96 the following hand is described....

Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG limps, UTG+1 raises, Hero cold-calls, SB cold-calls, BB cold-calls, UTG calls.

Flop (10sb): J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked to UTG+1 who bets, Hero.....

The text advises that raising is the correct play for our Hero.

In all the other examples of protecting your hand, I understood the value of the raise/bet. Frequently, you are not only protecting your marginal hand or draw, but you are also buying outs or in some cases raising for value. In one example you're raising the button's bet when you think it's "reasonably likely" your hand is best at the moment.

What confuses me about the Q7 example above is how does raising help if Hero does not have the best hand (UTG+1 could have AA-99, AJs, KJs, AJ or KJ...assuming he follows SSH Loose Games preflop raising chart [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ) against which Hero is a serious dog. Also, raising does not protect his hand from overcard draws in that UTG+1 is sure to call if he happened to be raising with AK, AQ, AT, or KQ (suited or not) and the raise gives UTG+1 the correct odds to call a turn bet to catch an Ace or King (assuming Hero's hand is currenty good).

If the pot had not been raised preflop, but were still large due to a bunch of limpers, I clearly see the value of Hero raising. I understand the pot is large due to the preflop raise, but I feel like this hand is not strong enough to merit continuing against a preflop EP raiser.

Am I missing something or just still thinking too weak-tight?

(FWIW, in all the other examples of aggressive flop/turn play in the book, I understood the reasoning behind them. For some reason the above hand just "feels" different.)

[PotatoStew]

Cold calling an EP raise from MP w/ Q7s? Am I missing something here? Isn't that generally a little ill-advised?

[Griffin]

The example is from the text, and it is made clear that the cold-call is a mistake. However, it also says that folding on the flop is a mistake.

I see how calling the flop bet is wrong, but I don't yet see how raising is better than folding.

[Ed Miller]

Cold calling an EP raise from MP w/ Q7s? Am I missing something here? Isn't that generally a little ill-advised?

Of course. It's in the intro to the postflop section. Our hapless hero plays terribly. He cold-calls the raise with Q7s and then he calls the bet again on the flop.

The commentary then tells you that both calling the raise and calling the flop are errors, but the obvious one, the preflop call, is the smaller error of the two. It is more important to raise the flop than it is to fold preflop!

[PotatoStew]

Ah! Ok, that's good to hear. I plan on getting the book, but was going to have second thoughts if a Q7s cold call was held up as an example of good play. Glad to hear that's not the case.

As for a flop raise, I don't get it either.

[Ed Miller]

I see how calling the flop bet is wrong, but I don't yet see how raising is better than folding.

Folding is a huge error! You have middle pair and an overcard kicker. You also have a backdoor flush draw. There are 11 BETS in the pot! You have around a 6 out hand. Folding is horrible.

Besides, your pair of sevens will sometimes be the best hand.

[Ed Miller]

Also, raising does not protect his hand from overcard draws in that UTG+1 is sure to call if he happened to be raising with AK, AQ, AT, or KQ (suited or not) and the raise gives UTG+1 the correct odds to call a turn bet to catch an Ace or King (assuming Hero's hand is currenty good).

The raise isn't designed to get the preflop raiser to fold (though we wouldn't complain if he did). There are three other players in the hand. You want THEM to fold. Say someone behind you has ten-eight (for a gutshot draw and two overcards to your sevens). Do you want him to call for a single bet in a twelve bet pot?

Also, the preflop raiser (or anyone else for that matter) could have TT, 99, or 88. There is a solid chance such a player will fold before the river. But if you don't raise, then he can't fold.

[Griffin]

Thanks Ed,

It is going to take some time for me to overcome some of the "scared" play strategies that have become habit for me.

In the case of this hand, what I see is that most of the time I'm behind to the preflop raiser, and therefore my raise is going to get 3-bet.

That's weak-tight thinking which I'll stop doing right....NOW. (Man, I wish it were that easy).

Next time I'm in a big pot with a hand like this, I'll raise it and report the results. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Ed Miller]

In the case of this hand, what I see is that most of the time I'm behind to the preflop raiser, and therefore my raise is going to get 3-bet.

Hands that don't 3-bet you:

AK : 16 ways
AQ : 12 ways
AT : 16 ways
TT : 6 ways
99 : 6 ways
-------------
56 ways

Hands that might 3-bet you:

AA : 6 ways
KK : 6 ways
QQ : 3 ways
JJ : 3 ways
AJ : 12 ways
--------------
30 ways

You are almost a 2-to-1 favorite to put the preflop raiser in an unpleasant situation by raising him.

And that's assuming he raised with a reasonable hand, which is not a fair assumption. Add in all those times he raised preflop with A2 or KT or 22... and you got him way more often than he has you when the flop comes J75.

Remember all those times you raised preflop and flopped nothing? Remember all those times you bet the flop anyway and someone raised you? Remember all those times you groaned and tried to find the fold button?

YOUR OPPONENT COULD BE THAT GUY!

[Randy Burgess]

I am one of three people on the East Coast who have not read Ed's book. But in any case a) yes, preflop cold-call bad, and b) flop raise good here, and you don't even have to think about it that long or hard. The utility just seems unquestionable.

I was playing in a tight-preflop, loose-bad postflop game last night in a NYC club, and several times found myself making this sort of play - not the Q7s cold-call, but flop and even turn raises to protect relatively weak hands that had a shot at being best and would benefit from knocking out other players and getting headup with the preflop raiser. In this particular example it's worth noting that the flop is very raggedy - this plus your outs seems decisive.