Good free-card raise...?

[El Dukie]

Here's the hand. The free-card raise on the flop worked to perfection, but I think I should have value-bet the river....

15-30 live hand. The table's been pretty passive so far. I'm on the button, and limp in after 3 early/mid limpers with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], looking to see a flop cheap with multiway action. SB calls, and BB (unfortunately) raises. BB is pretty loose, but not a complete loony -- though he might raise here with good multiway hands (suited Ace, suited connectors, small pairs, etc.) in addition to the usual big pairs and AK. All the limpers call, so I do too, along with SB.

The flop is a beauty. 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Top pair (weak kicker) + the flush draw. SB checks, BB bets out, there's one MP caller, and I raise. BB and MP both call. I think BB would have 3-bet with AQ or better, so I might be ahead. But he might also just call with something like KQs or QJs. I'm not sure if I'm ahead or not.

Turn is J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] -- not very likely to have changed things. They check to me. I take the free card. I might hit the flush or two pair on the river, or my check might induce a bluff attempt against my pair of Queens.

River is J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. The running pair gives me Queens up, with a weak kicker. Again, they check to me. I (wrongly, I think, but I was a little concerned about a better Queen) check and turn over my Queen. They both fold unseen. I win.

Comments? As I said, I was a little worried about a better Queen (KQ, or QTs). I expect that if either player had held a Jack they'd have bet the river, so I think QJ can be ruled out, and AQ would have likely 3-bet the flop....

[j.k.]

Bet the turn, you most certainly have the best hand. I think your fear of a better Q is unfounded - Mp has done nothing but call and BB isn't going to raise preflop with AQ/KQ/QJ and not 3 bet the flop when he hits his hand AND theres a flush draw out. With no read on MP it sounds like a he maybe be drawing with 7x8x, a flush, or something like A6. Bet the turn and if you still are worried about your kicker you can check behind on the river (although I think you would have a clear value bet under those circumstances).
The point I'm trying to make here is that a free card in this situation actually hurts you more than it helps since you likely hold the best hand and are giving the other two a free chance to catch up.

j.k.

[andyfox]

Hi El Dukie,

I wouldn't be thinking about getting a free card with top pair and a flush draw. I wouldn't want to give a free card to the others either. Since they both meekly called when I raised the flop, I'd bet the turn when they checked. If by some chance I'm behind, I still have a draw to a flush. When they check the river, that's three straight shows of weakness by both players. It's certainly a betting situation for me. I wouldn't overthink it. I have top pair and 4-flush. How much better can things have worked out with Q-8s?

[Lmn55d]

hey, are you a current duke student? I'm gonna be a junior next year...

[elysium]

hi el dukie

this is a misapplication of the free-card raise. you aren't raising for the free card on the flop because if checked to you, you will bet. you are raising to keep the hand concealed and (therefore) for extra implied value, as well as to take down the pot, as unlikely as it may seem, on the flop. you're not raising for value since you want the folds and aren't really a strong enough favorite, although you are clearly in the lead. you need to be a substantial favorite when called to make this a value raise, but under no conditions is it a free-card raise. and i've got to get a plug in here for dan hanson because here is the scenario dan pounded into everyone's brains if only they would listen.

this player checks down the turn incorrectly, IMO, because he thinks his free-card raise was successfully not reraised, and now he is capitalizing on it. the terminology of what he did on the flop may itself have caused him to erringly check-down the turn.

if this player had a better understanding of what a free card raise is and isn't, something dan hanson did take the effort to deliniate, we wouldn't see this kind of mistake taking place. we need to hammer out more difinatively what a free-card raise is and isn't, and we need to better define a value bet. the two may not seem related, however knowing what exactly they in fact are does give great assistance as we navigate through these difficult areas.

by the way, i've just learned about the death of andy glazier. andy was very brave. not a one of us deserved the contribution that andy made toward a more honest game with unrestricted freedom of speech. it just so happens that oftentimes, as andy demonstrated, it requires a belief impervious to death to keep telling it like is even after death. brave people have that going for them at all times. now i don't know what andy believed, i haven't read his posts very thoroughly yet. but something tells me we have not heard the last from andy. i am sure that he will continue to tell it like it is.

[WillMagic]

Actually, I think you played this hand extremely poorly. The flop raise is correct, but not because you are trying to get a free card on the turn, but rather because you have the best hand and the best draw and are raising for value. When you check the turn, you are just giving free cards to the other players who are trying to catch up to you. And why didn't you bet the river here? It should be really obvious that your hand is best after the turn and river action (or rather, complete lack of action), and it's not like these guys are going to fold middle and bottom pair.

Will

[Deorum]

I am with the other folks on this one. If you are going to
check any street here, it should be the river and not the
turn (although I am not saying you should definately
have checked the river, either). This should be an easy
value bet: even if you are behind on the turn, you could
easily have as many as 12 outs, and you could have the MP
drawing nearly dead. But given the way you played it, you
have a clear river bet.

[Michael Davis]

I think you should assume top pair whatever kicker is the best hand until somebody tells you otherwise. Nobody did in this hand and you checked.

On the turn, don't worry about the flush draw. It's a bonus. You have a pair of queens and that rates to be the best hand here. The standard checking with outs doesn't apply here because it's almost certain you have the best hand, and that should never be checked.

Your flop is not, or should not have been, a free card raise. If you are against a better hand, you are probably getting threebet and not getting the free card anyways. If you don't get threebet, you have the best hand so why would you want a free card?

-Michael

[Michael Davis]

"you're not raising for value since you want the folds and aren't really a strong enough favorite, although you are clearly in the lead. you need to be a substantial favorite when called to make this a value raise, but under no conditions is it a free-card raise"

I don't understand this. It's either a value raise or something else. That something else would be a free card raise as I can't see any other possibility here. I also disagree on the value of this play; with top pair and a flush draw, hero is likely a huge favorite in this hand.

-Michael

[El Dukie]

Alum. E93.