A "wait till the turn" example?

Griffin · #1 07-20-2004, 12:14 PM

Should I have checkraised the turn instead of the flop?

Pacific 5/10
In this hand, EP is an AnyAcer and Button is a good player.

I'm in the BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

EP, MP, Button, SB and I see the flop (no raise).

Flop (5sbs): 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, EP bets (probably has an Ace), MP calls, Button raises (probably has A8-AT, I think he would have raised preflop with AJ or better and I can't imagine him having a draw), SB folds, I 3-bet, EP calls, MP folds, Button calls.

Turn (7.2BB): K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet, both call. I feel confident that they both have Aces and that the King didn't help either of them.

River (10.2BB): K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I am now certain that I'm beat. I am also certain that EP will call a bet.

I check (would you bet here?) and it's checked around.

If I had just called the Button's flop raise and then raised his turn bet, EP/AnyAcer might be more likely to fold. Also, it might look like the turn King hit me to give me two pair. On the river, the Button might think I filled up and might fold.

Or is that just wishful thinking and I lose this hand no matter how I play it?

sthief09 · #2 07-20-2004, 12:19 PM

yawn

you played it well. don't let the results lead you to believe you didn't.

colgin · #3 07-20-2004, 12:20 PM

Seems like you took a pretty reasonable line on this one. A very bad river card fell; what can you do.

All the best,

Colgin

Griffin · #4 07-20-2004, 12:28 PM

Thanks guys. Good to know I didn't totally botch one.

Ed has made several recent posts on waiting till the turn to raise instead of 3-betting/capping the flop. I wondered if his example applied here, but I suppose it's more for large, multi-way pots.

Once his book gets to my door, I'll know for sure. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

arkady · #5 07-20-2004, 12:37 PM

betting the river here is a good way to spew some chips, as you will get called about....hmm....i dunno 100% of the time? cant quite believe it was checked around - but you get to see what Ax cheese they were playing!

Ed Miller · #6 07-20-2004, 12:43 PM

I am now certain that I'm beat. I am also certain that EP will call a bet.

I check (would you bet here?) and it's checked around.

You are certain you are beaten and certain to be called. Who would bet under these conditions?

Ed Miller · #7 07-20-2004, 12:47 PM

Ed has made several recent posts on waiting till the turn to raise instead of 3-betting/capping the flop. I wondered if his example applied here, but I suppose it's more for large, multi-way pots.

This is a fine spot to 3-bet the flop. But consider going for a check-raise on the turn anyway. If you think it is quite likely that one or both of your opponents have aces, it usually won't be checked through. Say CO guy has AT. Is he gonna check behind on the turn on an AK43 board?

Check-raising the flop does not force you to bet the turn.

Griffin · #8 07-20-2004, 12:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
cant quite believe it was checked around - but you get to see what Ax cheese they were playing!

[/ QUOTE ]

EP had A2o and Button had A8s. I figured the Button wasn't playing complete cheese.

Holm Fries · #9 07-20-2004, 12:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[i]
Check-raising the flop does not force you to bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point. I was thinking about this earlier today. In certain multi-way pots I think you can c/r the flop and turn due to the unwillingness by some to give a free card with a hand like top pair. I think it has been done to me more than I have done it myself, but is something that I need to consider more strongly in select situations.

I think people who always bet the turn in this situations are probably also those who always bet after they raise pf. The more I learn the more I think that it really shouldn't be automatic.

Griffin · #10 07-20-2004, 12:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am now certain that I'm beat. I am also certain that EP will call a bet.

I check (would you bet here?) and it's checked around.

You are certain you are beaten and certain to be called. Who would bet under these conditions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody should, but I've been known to make worse plays [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] which therefore makes me question every play I make.

But you're right..."would you bet here" was a pretty dumb question. Sorry.