weak fold of KK or mature play?

SofaCoach · #1 07-14-2004, 08:27 PM

Having played for just a few months I believe one of the toughest things for novice to intermediate players is to let go of a good hand when it is warranted. This is probably the quickest fold I've ever made of a KK , but I think I made the right play. Do y'all agree or was this too weak?

Based on Bison's good suggestion I've left off the results as to not influence your assesment.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero 3-bets, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 caps, MP1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (21.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, Hero folds, CO folds.

Turn: (11.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, MP1 calls.

River: (13.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

SnakeRat · #2 07-14-2004, 08:30 PM

I think thats wise move.

poorbus96 · #3 07-14-2004, 10:04 PM

I need help... Why is this a wise move? Because of the ace or flush...If one of his kings is a club is he supposed to now check/call to the end? Maybe Im still too novice or weak but I dont think I could fold on this flop. If another club hits then I might fold. Sorry for my ignorance

SparkyDog · #4 07-14-2004, 10:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I need help... Why is this a wise move? Because of the ace or flush...If one of his kings is a club is he supposed to now check/call to the end? Maybe Im still too novice or weak but I dont think I could fold on this flop. If another club hits then I might fold. Sorry for my ignorance

[/ QUOTE ]

You're drawing to two outs at best, if no one has a made flush. That's why it's an easy fold. If he had the king of clubs, he would obviously call since he has a draw to the nut flush. While it was an excellent hand PF, it's nearly worthless now.

Snoogins47 · #5 07-14-2004, 10:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Having played for just a few months I believe one of the toughest things for novice to intermediate players is to let go of a good hand when it is warranted. This is probably the quickest fold I've ever made of a KK , but I think I made the right play. Do y'all agree or was this too weak?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm no pro, but I definitely feel that was too weak. I probably would've raised the flop. A 3 bet preflop, and a raise on the flop would scare off many weak aces, and you don't want to give anybody with a club the chance to draw out on you. If you get raised, you'd probably have to muck immediately. If the initial bettor calls, I'd be afraid of an ace. If the initial caller just calls, and another club hits, I would be afraid as well.

To me, the bettor could be on anything, including a lone club, weak ace, even QQ or something. A raise will probably tell you what you need to know. Another fear would be a made flush, maybe by the mp1, if he's slowplaying.

Normally I wouldn't be too afraid of the made flush with a capped bet preflop, but you can never be too sure, especially at the bottom limit at Party hehe.

I don't mind folding all that much here, i definitely think it's vastly superior than calling.

This flop is definitely a lot of heat to take with KK. I think the pot is big enough that you need to see where you stand before you just give it up, as you could be ahead here.

I don't mind the fold though, like it much better than check/calling this down

citizenkn · #6 07-14-2004, 11:27 PM

Five players see the flop...there is an ace and three clubs. I'd be shocked if there wasn't an ace lurking out there, and there is certainly a flush draw or two, if not a made flush. This was a good fold.

Snoogins47 · #7 07-14-2004, 11:52 PM

Just a quick note:

I wouldn't say two outs. Your chances of improving this hand are slim to none. It's very hard to be certain that the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] would be a clean out. The ONLY reason I would raise the flop is on the chance that you're ahead, and the bettors are betting on clubs: this kinda stuff happens in party .5/1 all the time.

With a bit more thought though, at least one of them, probably both, WILL stick around if they've got clubs and are drawing. Not only would they, regardless of the pot size, they're probably correct in doing so too. And then, when they call, what information have you gathered from the raise? If you're certain they're drawing, and no clubs fall, hammer away. If you get played back at, you know you're behind. However, I think there are enough hands that will call you here that have you beat, and won't play back at you.

So, I'm going to retract my original statement, and give folding the nod here. Raising would be a not very close second, and calling would be about 8 miles below. Sorry, I definitely rushed through the first reply and didn't take pay hardly any attention to the necessary details. Just goes to show why I would trust the word of most people on here more than my own ;P

Greg J · #8 07-14-2004, 11:53 PM

Actually poorbus96 that was a reasonable question. The only point of dissagreement I have with Sparky here is that is there if you held a king of clubs you don't just call, but raise the flop for a possible free card on the turn and for value play it much more aggressively -- you would be playing to the nuts.

I also like the fold by the way.

SparkyDog · #9 07-14-2004, 11:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Actually poorbus96 that was a reasonable question. The only point of dissagreement I have with Sparky here is that is there if you held a king of clubs you don't just call, but raise the flop for a possible free card on the turn and for value play it much more aggressively -- you would be playing to the nuts.

I also like the fold by the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right about the raise. You'd have both a strong made hand against any flush draws, a good redraw against made aces. I'd be very aggressive with this, hoping to fold out Ax w/o clubs, and other drawing hands I likely have beat, and a better draw also.

SofaCoach · #10 07-15-2004, 03:37 PM

Results, below. But before I get to that a couple comments: First, as soon as I posted this hand, re-reading it before getting any responses I thought "What an easy fold". I still think that. It amazes me that tough decisions at the table can become so easy here when yyour not in the heat of the moment, it's not your money on the line, and most of all your not sitting there with KK.

Anyway, still like my fold but agree that the flop raise is superior to a call. And of course if I had the K of clubs I'm going pedal to the metal on this flop.

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero 3-bets, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 caps, MP1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (21.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, Hero folds, CO folds.

Turn: (11.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, MP1 calls.

River: (13.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB
Main Pot: 15.75 BB, between MP1 and UTG. > Pot won by MP1 (15.75 BB).

Results
UTG shows 8d Jd (high card, ace).
MP1 shows 4s Ah (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP1 wins 15.75 BB.

So UTG is a moron and gets the appropriate notes (which include "don't fold anything decent to this guy"). MP1 should never have been in this pot with A4o. He called 2 cold PF and another coming back around. Another guy I want to play more with but no way was I gonna get him off his hand.