Question for those with High SAT scores - Page 3

Ed Miller · #21 07-13-2004, 05:12 PM

I for one can't tell you why you should 3 bet preflop.

1. Your hand is probably better than the maniac's (or anyone else's for that matter).
2. You have a very reasonable chance to get the big blind or some of the limpers to fold, abandoning their initial bet. That is VERY compelling.

So it's fine if everyone calls, and if some fold it's even better.

Ed Miller · #22 07-13-2004, 05:16 PM

When choosing whether to wait for the turn to raise, or to raise immediately on the flop, consider these factors:

1. How likely your hand is to be best now
2. How likely a BAD CARD is to come on the turn... one that will severely damage or ruin your hand.
3. How likely you are to miss your turn raise

In this example, your hand is quite likely to be best, only an ace on the turn is really scary, and you must be very worried about the turn getting checked through (not only missing your turn raise, but even just a single turn bet). In other words, this is a quite a clear case for 4-betting the flop and betting the turn.

Gotmilk · #23 07-13-2004, 06:11 PM

Has anyone considered folding the KQ preflop and waiting til you have position? KQo isn't a premium hand! We are out of position and facing the prospect of raises on every street! It's a nightmare even when we flop top pair!

Gotmilk · #24 07-13-2004, 06:22 PM

OK so I'm being a complete tightass, but I just figured SOMEONE should suggest folding preflop :-) The limper ain't going anywhere preflop and he should at least have an ace or position on us. With calling stations if we 3-bet before the flop WE AREN'T going to get leverage to steal the pot by 3-betting it preflop.

And yeah, calling the third bet on the flop then leading the flop makes no sense when there is no draw (sometimes I lead out on the turn if i suspect a free card type raise, but this obviously isn't the case). Cap it and lead out, or call and check raise again. It's always very useful to check because you can see if you are going to get stuck in the middle of a raising war--If you check raise the turn one of two things will happen-- The UTG+1 will check, you'll raise the maniac and the UTG+1 will 3-bet and your cards hit the much faster than a head can spin or UTG+1 bets and the maniac raises and you can fold and save a bet. The middle card pairing is bad bad news. But that's why I hate having KQo out of position!

ethan · #25 07-13-2004, 06:53 PM

Preflop - a reraise will probably just look like you're trying to isolate, but I like it anyways. You likely get the BB out of the way, there's some chance of losing a limper and there's a good chance you have the best hand. The limpers would also have to worry about the maniac capping, which he's just about guaranteed to do. If you end up with 4 (or 5, I guess) seeing the flop, so be it.

On the flop, I'd say cap it. UTG+1 could be doing something tricky with 2pr/set and letting the two of you bet his hand, but I think you're still ahead. The call's fine if you're planning on check-raising the turn.

On the turn, if UTG+1 has a 7 or 44 it looks like it's going to cost you 7BB more to see it. I'd also think the maniac has _something_ by this point, and there's some chance it's a 7. Best case for you here I'd think would be UTG+1 having a worse K and the maniac having either that or something like TT.

But, I think there's a decent chance of that being the situation. Why does UTG+1 raise the turn? Is there a reasonable chance of the maniac's not raising? If not, and UTG+1 had you beat, wouldn't he want to bring you along? If he calls your bet, the maniac raises and you call he can still 3-bet and hope the maniac caps. You've also done a lot of betting/raising this hand, meaning you'd likely 3-bet the maniac's raise. I'd think he wants it to be 2 bets back to you and for you to have to worry about paying 5 more beyond that, so you'll fold a better K and he'll be alone with the maniac.

Or, I could be thinking way, way too hard here and it's time to fold. (I'm figuring this is pretty likely.)

If you cap the turn and UTG+1 calls, I'd presume that means you're beaten. How about if you call the 3-bet and he caps? I'm not absolutely convinced UTG+1's ahead of you, but I'm also not sure I'd want to go much further trying to figure it out. So, I guess I don't have particularly good advice for how to play the turn, but I'm curious what other people think of UTG+1's turn raise.

The Dude · #26 07-13-2004, 07:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone considered folding the KQ preflop and waiting til you have position?

[/ QUOTE ]
Folding preflop isn't just bad, it's terrible.

[ QUOTE ]
KQo isn't a premium hand!

[/ QUOTE ]
It is against a maniac.

soda · #27 07-13-2004, 08:40 PM

Post deleted by soda

Ed Miller · #28 07-13-2004, 08:44 PM

Too many nitpickers.

It's really not a nitpick. You could play for days and never encounter someone capable of "putting you on an isolation play" correctly. 98%+ of players don't think that deeply.

And no, not every one of those 98%+ players will auto-call two more bets back to them.

Bottom line is, the limpers will fold with some frequency in this spot. They just will, no matter how you break it down.

scrub · #29 07-13-2004, 09:59 PM

If for no other reason than that a lot of you are overestimating what they must be holding to have limped in the first place. Most players you play against on a day in day out basis are prone to making bizzare limps when they're bored or frustrated or just like a hand. Many of them know better and will drop their 79o or whatever to two more cold, even if they do think it's an isolation play, because they also know they shouldn't have limped in the first place.

Plus, the KQ is going to be the best hand out of the gate a ton of the time and you love it when you get called. That's the neat thing about having a maniac on your right. The maniac runs the limpers into your KQ. On the other hand, it looks like in this hand the maniac might have run you into a hand that was better than the KQ after the flop. But 3-betting is still the best option by far.

scrub

Gotmilk · #30 07-13-2004, 10:07 PM

You aren't against a maniac, you are against a maniac and an early-position caller. You are overvaluing KQo out of position. I don't know about the strength of this early-position limper, but if you make a habit of 3-betting from the SB with KQo when I have just limped in in front of a maniac, you are throwing your money away.