Party 15 - KTs on the Button

[DcifrThs]

your post is a much more elequent way of saying what you said earlier.

your assumption is that your edge (hand ranking wise) is small. but you're not only investing in the hand...you're investing in the position as well.

the pot goes from 6bets if you limp to 9.xy bets if you raise and blinds fold. (by the way, if you have .01 edge and raise it doesn't go to .02 unless that .01 edge is the CUMMULATIVE SUM of the edges against each player...otherwise it goes up by a bigger factor). calling with two outs is wrong in both cases, in keeping the pot small you make them make larger mistakes but cost yourslef more money in the process than their mistake is worth when the difference is 3 small bets...

-Barron

[soda]

I think for now, we'll have to agree to disagree.

But, if anyone wants to compare numbers along with strategies, then maybe I'll listen some more to the other side of the argument.

soda

[sublime]

I raised pre-flop for value. I think KTs is worth a raise here for fair share value. I didn't think this pre-flop raise would be debated.

WOW! Neither did I. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[sublime]

But, if anyone wants to compare numbers along with strategies, then maybe I'll listen some more to the other side of the argument

Or you could crack open HEFAP and read the loose games section.

[soda]

[ QUOTE ]
But, if anyone wants to compare numbers along with strategies, then maybe I'll listen some more to the other side of the argument

Or you could crack open HEFAP and read the loose games section.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I'd rather analyze stuff myself, but since you insist.

HPFAP, loose games section, p 159:

"Frequently keep it to a single bet before the flop more than most people think because you gain a lot when bad players make incorrect calls on the flop and beyond, as long as the pot is kept small."

This would appear to support my argument.

soda

[sublime]

HPFAP, loose games section, p 159:

Did you overlook page p173 "Its important to be suited" on purpose? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[DcifrThs]

soda, c'mon...

do you think DS and MM were talking about 3 limpers keeping the pot small...they're talking about having AJo and 6 people limp...you limp there. if you have KTs after 6 limpers you better raise or you are costing yoruself money.

keeping the pot small is to be done with hands that need to protect and not draw, scared hands i think if i remember that analogy correctly (brave hands are the ones like KTs at times when the pot can grow and there are draws it can hit). yes they make mistakes, but you need to pick what mistakes you want them to make...here with 3 limpers the pot is still relatively small and only varries by 3 small bets...

DS and MM, i think, are referring to situations where you have an option to have a 6sb pot or a 12 sb pot from the BB or after 5 limpers having a 8sb pot or a 13sb pot where it becomes correct to peel one off with hands that it WOULDNT be correct to do so in a smaller pot but the poor players would do it anyway...

-Barron

[soda]

Well, I suppose this argument could go on and on.

The only way I see this being settled is if someone grows some ballz and shows me that they make more money with KTs than I do.

Please PM me if you'd like to compare numbers privately. Consider this my last insightful post to this thread.

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

soda

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
KTs plays well multi-way. This general means that you want to keep your preflop investment small.

[/ QUOTE ]

A hand playing well multiway has utterly nothing to do with you wanted to keep your investment small, it's actually the opposite, i'll explain.

When you have more than a fair share you don't 'spoil' your implied odds, the only way you do infact spoil them is if you are going to slow your opponent down on later rounds, i.e. with a flush draw and over cards against a made hand, yes you would rather put 4 bets in when you make your hand rather than 4 bets when you are a small favourite. By getting 4 bets in you slow him down. However if you only have a flush draw then you are infact spoiling your implied odds by getting more bets in on the flop.

However this isn't true with a preflop raise, you are infact encouraging them to do dumb [censored] postflop and also continue (correctly) with their hand postflop. Your draw will always be making money from them calling correctly, the money comes from the best hand.

A hand playing well multiway means it has a good multiway win % equity, i.e. 78s, with this sometimes you'll have more than your 'fair share' however with a hand like KTs you will almost always have nearly your fair share then the added advantages of a raise push this over to make it a raise.

[ QUOTE ]
This is silly, their mistakes are, by and large, calling too much. By limping in, I can magnify this mistake by keeping the pot smaller preflop, when my edge is smallest. Preflop, my edge with KTs is much smaller than once the flop hits. Given a large enough pot, calling with just about any two cards can become correct.


[/ QUOTE ]

The idea is 'big mistakes in small pots' which is a good plan, you skip a little part of equity preflop by raising to gain more postflop when they then make incorrect calls, the idea only implies when they aren't limping bad hands, i.e. if i ran the sims with some hands that were awful yet some players limp them you're preflop extra win equity would be too big to overcome. I also think i overrated the 'make the pot big so they'll correctly call afterwards, yet you want them to' since they will incorrect call anyway, which is much better.

This arguement could go on forever, because it's so so close, there are about 4 big advantages to both plays and if one poster thinks one of those is a strong factor they will go with that, so you can see the amount of variance in answers we could have.

To dcfir:

[ QUOTE ]
do you think DS and MM were talking about 3 limpers keeping the pot small...they're talking about having AJo and 6 people limp...you limp there. if you have KTs

[/ QUOTE ]

They aren't talking about any hand directly, they are talking about hands that fall into the 'small edge preflop, yet would have a bigger edge postflop is the pot was kept small' The reason they use offsuit cards is for the reason of small preflop edge (notice, they tell you to raise when the players play awful cards - meaning more preflop edge).

[sublime]

Please PM me if you'd like to compare numbers privately. Consider this my last insightful post to this thread.

You are right. Everybody else, including DS and MM is wrong. Are you happy now?