overpair out of position. advice?

2283 · #1 07-09-2004, 01:24 AM

avoiding this problem would be a good thing but raising preflop in MP1 might create other problems that are worse.

AZK · #2 07-09-2004, 02:25 AM

Such as....

2283 · #3 07-09-2004, 03:26 AM

such as being out of position with a good-but-vulerable hand in a larger pot, being hit with a reraise preflop, etc...

ClimbRock512 · #4 07-09-2004, 09:37 AM

Thats no excuse. You have to raise this. If all unders fall, great, bet that baby out. If an A or K hits, bet that flop, they probably put you on AK or something and you'll take the pot quite often. JJ is a good hand, don't underestimate it.

AZK · #5 07-09-2004, 02:09 PM

I agree with climbrock, not raising JJ in MP because you might get reraised is worthless. That's like saying you shouldn't raise premium hands because what if they don't hit on the flop. But we still do it anyway...JJ isn't a hand where you wish you had position compared to other hands like AKs, I think it's pretty cut and dry, the flop comes under - woo hoo, the flop comes over - you take a stab at the pot and if you are called you are done from there...

JJ is a schizophrenic hand, in the sense that it's strong enough to raise preflop when you are first in or in mid position, but you are really just hoping to take the pot down preflop. Once the flop hits, it plays like a low pocket pair essentially....

Leo Bello · #6 07-09-2004, 02:25 PM

After many posts on the subject and so on, JJ is still one of the biggerh ands that is most difficult to play.
But I doubt only limping in would be the best way to play it. You open yourself to many outdraws, including weaker hands like QT, Q8, Kx, and others. You have a made hand pre-flop, a chance to hit a set and so on. A small raise would made some limpers to go away and help in many hands.

2283 · #7 07-09-2004, 02:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with climbrock, not raising JJ in MP because you might get reraised is worthless. That's like saying you shouldn't raise premium hands because what if they don't hit on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont think it's like that at all.

ClimbRock512 · #8 07-09-2004, 03:37 PM

What is it like then? I don't understand why you wouldn't raise with JJ?

AZK · #9 07-09-2004, 04:46 PM

I think not raising JJ preflop is just encouraging people with worse hands than you to catch up and outdraw you on the flop. While JJ is good, there are only a handfull of flops that look really nice, I don't think I ever feel truly comfortable on a flop that doesn't resemble JJx, or Jxxr.

Also, this is microlimit NL online, people will play with you anyway, why not raise when you most likely have the best of it?

I think the best EV edge JJ has is preflop, there isn't another street that even comes close. If someone reraises you preflop, you can take it from there based on odds to hit a set/raisers standards and so forth, but if you don't raise, you have no idea where you stand on the flop.

NotAClue · #10 07-09-2004, 03:24 PM

Unless you're at an extremely aggressive table, or you're at a table with a bunch of people that'll call pf raises with Kx, Ax, or Qx and once they hit TP on the flop wont let their hand go, you need to open-raise with JJ. Open-limping with it is a disaster, ESPECIALLY when you end up overplaying it.

As others have already said, at the very least check-call/fold the river. In certain circumstances I would fold the river to the raise. Since the CO is new to the table, you really don't have a read on him, so you probably have to call. But many times, the river completes a couple straight draws and a couple two-pair draws.