Mistake doing Battle with another Big Stack

OldLearner · #1 07-06-2004, 05:25 PM

OK. I'm not 100% sure who made the bigger mistake here, me for pushing or him for calling. I'd like to hear some opinions.

After I lost the hand and went out on the bubble (6th in 3 table SNG that pays top 5), I realized that I played better than most of the table so this was probably a mistake.

This guy had been telegraphing his hands. He would raise 4x with big hands (I had seen him do it 3 times with QQ, KK and KK) and minraising with Ax or small pp's. He played a lot of hands but was also catching a lot of cards. He had 2x the chips of anyone else when play at the Final Table began.

His minraise from the sb screamed of Ax so I went with my read and pushed, hoping to take the pot right there.

I have a small edge and I am the one pushing, not calling. Who made the bigger mistake. Me or him?

pokenum -h 8s 8h - ad kd
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
8s 8h 892317 52.11 813957 47.54 6030 0.35 0.523
Ad Kd 813957 47.54 892317 52.11 6030 0.35 0.477

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (6 handed)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG (t2200)
MP (t1765)
CO (t8527)
Button (t5732)
SB (t5844)
Hero (t5932)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB raises to t600, Hero raises to t5932 (All-In), SB calls t5244 (All-In).

Flop: (t11776) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t11776) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t11776) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t11776
Main Pot: t11688 (t11688), between SB and Hero. > Pot won by SB (t11688).
Pot 2: t88 (t88), returned to Hero.

Results:
Hero shows 8s 8h (two pair, aces and eights).
SB shows Ad Kd (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: SB wins t11688. Hero wins t88.

schwza · #2 07-06-2004, 05:40 PM

i don't think he made a mistake. if i were him i would have raised a little higher, probably to 900 on the first raise, but i would call you here. the chances you're holding AA or KK are low, and if he can double up here he'll have a nice chip lead.

if i were in your shoes i would have made a smaller raise, maybe to 1900 or so, and planned on folding to a reraise. the problem with pushing immediately here is that usually when you get called it's going to be by a bigger pair.

OldLearner · #3 07-07-2004, 01:35 PM

Still wondering about this?

I was the aggressor (I pushed) with the slighty better hand (88).

He called with the slightly worse hand (AKs).

Was my play bad (obviously I could have waited for a better spot and normally would have, but I really felt I would take it down based on my read of this guy).

Was his play bad (He's calling the all-in bet, I have him barely covered and we're on the bubble. My image, if you may, given that is a 3-table SNG is Tight/Aggressive).

If you are him, what do you do and why.

chet · #4 07-07-2004, 04:45 PM

It's usually not the right move to call all in with AK. You were ahead (by a little). I think I fold in his shoes.

tripdad · #5 07-07-2004, 04:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I fold in his shoes.

[/ QUOTE ]

you would be wrong. his only mistake was making too shallow a preflop raise.

Hero made a bigger mistake by re-raising all-in. he should have re-raised to T1800, and folded to an all-in. by doing this, he would have made the money here, and still had as good a chance as any to win.

cheers!

chet · #6 07-07-2004, 05:19 PM

Why is it a mistake for AK to fold to an all in bet? He's a small dog to most pairs and a big dog to the others. I rarely call an all in bet if I'm holding AK. However, I will make an all in bet with it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I fold in his shoes.

[/ QUOTE ]

you would be wrong. his only mistake was making too shallow a preflop raise.

Hero made a bigger mistake by re-raising all-in. he should have re-raised to T1800, and folded to an all-in. by doing this, he would have made the money here, and still had as good a chance as any to win.

cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

Tosh · #7 07-07-2004, 05:22 PM

You both played bad. His raise was too small and you should just look at a flop first.

caretaker1 · #8 07-07-2004, 05:37 PM

OldLearner,

What chip position were you in and with how many? Were any of the other players in danger of being blinded out? Part of the issue here is not just "what's better an 88 or AKs, or who made the better play mathematically", but the fact that you're riding you're entire tournament on a virtual coinflip (yes, slightly better I know). If your chip position was solid, I would call the small raise and see the flop. When an A hit and an 8 didn't, your decision would be easy and you'd be alive to fight on another hand. The only way I would agree with this play is if you were in the short stack and needed to double up to avoid being blinded. My $.02

SossMan · #9 07-07-2004, 06:01 PM

This reminds me.
I think I'm going to start waaaaayyyy over betting preflop with big hands, since so many players are doing it with medium pairs lately. I want people to call my KK/AA with their AQ, 88-JJ.

tripdad · #10 07-07-2004, 06:25 PM

you are only a big underdog to KK and AA. true, you are a slight dog to any other pair, but most of the time, an all-in preflop bet comes from a short stack desperate to double up. the range of hands that warrant an all-in is just too great to make folding AK correct.

now, if i am facing a raise, then a re-raise or all-in from a non short stack, i can fold AK depending on my read of the offending player.

having said that, if you never fold AK(especially suited)preflop, you are not far from correct.

cheers!