15/30 hands for review

Senor Choppy · #1 06-28-2004, 05:26 AM

Hand #1: Looking for comments on the river. I was moving on to the next hand in my mind until it was folding to me. I realized I could beat a counterfitted pocket pair, his play was consistent with one, and the pot was a decent size. I then decided I justify too much crap like this and need to save more bets, but I'm still not sure. If 10-1 isn't good enough for this call, what odds would be appropriate?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $15.
3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds.

Flop: (11 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 folds, Hero checks.

River: (9.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB
Main Pot: 9.50 BB, won by SB.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to SB.

Results in white below: 
SB doesn't show.
Outcome: SB wins 10.50 BB. 

Hand #2: Given my opponents hand, it's obvious I could've made more money here, my question is where should I have taken my foot off the gas? How often do people just call preflop? Anyone go for a check-raise on any of these streets?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 raises, 3 folds, CO 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero caps, UTG+2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12.66 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (7.33 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (9.33 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 11.33 BB
Main Pot: 11.33 BB, between CO and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (11.33 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Kc Kh (three of a kind, kings).
CO shows Kd Ad (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.33 BB. 

Hand #3: I like this one up to the river. I thought I was either getting check-raised or my opponent was folding the river, so a bet seemed unwise even though I didn't think he had an ace. Now I'm thinking I could've bet here, although I'm staring at the results ATM :/

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, BB checks,

Flop: (2.66 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (1.33 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: (5.33 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 5.33 BB
Main Pot: 5.33 BB, between BB and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (5.33 BB).

Results in white below: 
BB shows 7h 6d (one pair, sevens).
Hero shows Kc Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 5.33 BB. 

Hand #4: I managed to put in a raise every single street I was behind, and only called when I was actually in the lead. That can't be good.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls,

Flop: (10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, Hero raises, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, CO folds.

River: (10 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB
Main Pot: 14 BB, between SB and Hero. > Pot won by SB (14 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB shows 3h 3s (full house, threes full of eights).
Hero shows 5d Ad (flush, ace high).
Outcome: SB wins 14 BB. 

Hand #5: Another hand where I had no perspective on my chances of winning. My opponent was unknown at the time. What type of opponents would you call against in this spot, and/or how big would the pot have to be against a random opponent? I figured JT was my only hope here, and then thought of all the times I've had that thought and how much money it's cost me over the years.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks,

Flop: (4 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, SB folds.

Turn: (3 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 calls.

River: (9 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10 BB
Main Pot: 9 BB, won by MP2.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to MP2.

Results in white below: 
MP2 doesn't show.
Outcome: MP2 wins 10 BB.

Michael Davis · #2 06-28-2004, 06:33 AM

Hand #1, I don't think your opponent would have a pocket pair, but he could have some sort of busted draw. Why would he have small pockets, bet a flop with two overcards, and then call a raise? Problem is, you're beat most of the time. I fold here, too.

I think you got cute in hand #s 3 and 4. I generally bet the flop every time I raise preflop in a heads up pot. It looks fishy not to. I understand the merits of checking behind here, but if that's your play, you just call down the whole way. I think you should bet the flop. And I definitely think you should value bet the river.

Hand #4, I would raise the flush when it hit on the turn. I guess you were trying to keep the last guy in. Your way of playing this hand is okay.

Hand #5, I don't think you can fold this river if you play it check-fold. Bet-raise, probably.

-Michael

stoxtrader · #3 06-28-2004, 08:40 AM

hand 2 - Given the 2 flush on the flop, I like to avoid giving the free card. I have come to the conclusion that my dividing line between slowplaying top set or jamming it is oftentimes whether there is a straight or flush draw out there....

Senor Choppy · #4 06-28-2004, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #1, I don't think your opponent would have a pocket pair, but he could have some sort of busted draw. Why would he have small pockets, bet a flop with two overcards, and then call a raise? Problem is, you're beat most of the time. I fold here, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 88 is reasonable (though other hands are a lot more likely). It's not a good play, but it happens. I'm obviously beaten a huge majority of the time, but 88 or 77 is going to be out there occasionally, just curious what % of the time to expect it.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you got cute in hand #s 3 and 4. I generally bet the flop every time I raise preflop in a heads up pot. It looks fishy not to. I understand the merits of checking behind here, but if that's your play, you just call down the whole way. I think you should bet the flop. And I definitely think you should value bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

For hand #3, I wanted him to think something was up here, hoping he'd take a stab on the turn with nothing or check again with an ace.

Hand #4, I thought I could either get a free card on the flop if the button didn't bet, and then be able to pop someone for 2 big bets if I hit my flush on a later street, rather than just getting called down. I figured if he bet, I could check-raise, then probably get a free card on the turn if I missed. I usually bet the flop 90% of the time when I raise PF, but wanted to try something different here. I think it would've saved me a decent amount if I missed entirely, but would've cost me a few big bets if I ended up winning the hand.

I think it's probably a mistake if for no other reason than every bet I put in on the flop is probably going to be +EV.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #5, I don't think you can fold this river if you play it check-fold. Bet-raise, probably.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think I should always check-call here? Betting and folding to a raise seems pointless, as I can't expect to be called except by a lower flush, and I'd hate to throw away the pot when I can see a showdown for 1 bet anyway. I still don't have a clue how often I would expect to be good here.

Senor Choppy · #5 06-28-2004, 05:11 PM

My main deciding factor for how to play a hand after flopping top set is usually my opponents if the board isn't too scary but isn't totally benign either.

With only a 2 flush out there, I think playing it either way on the flop is OK. My main concern is not freaking out my opponents, and figuring out how to make them continue with AQ or 88 here.

astroglide · #6 06-28-2004, 05:29 PM

1: i think it's great to give pause to thoughts like whether or not a highcard is good here, but i don't buy it in this case.

2: i can like AUTOCALLING three cold preflop here. i have found that it is inviting enough to the blinds, where a cap is highly prohibitive. the key is to click the "call any" box IMMEDIATELY after the threebet goes off.

3: i'm becoming less of a fan of the raise on the turn here, but i think the second spade can make it happen. i also think that's enough reason to check down the river.

4: i like the flop checkraise. with a K and a Q out there and the stopngo, i would have raised the turn. you get more action from 2 pair or other flushes because you raised preflop, and you're WAY more likely to get led into again if the river brings a 4flush and they have a diamond.

5: good fold

TimTimSalabim · #7 06-28-2004, 05:55 PM

Hand 1, I don't think you have much worry that you folded a winner. The fact that SB bet into that flop in front of 4 other players including a PFR rules out a hand like 88 in my mind.

Senor Choppy · #8 06-28-2004, 07:19 PM

Anyone want to throw out numbers for when you'd make calls with hands 1 & 5? I was thinking somewhere around 30-1 for #1, 15-1 for #4.

bobbyi · #9 06-28-2004, 09:13 PM

Most of this looks fine, but I don't think I like the turn raise on hand three. If he has an open-ended straight draw or a flush draw, you charge him the max this way, and that's good. But given the preflop and flop action, you've induced him to bet here with a lot of hands worse than that. I think the chance is pretty high (regardless of the actual results this time) that he is taking a stab at the pot with either absolutely nothing, or with just a small piece of the board like a bad pair or a gutshot. In those cases, he is likely to fold to your raise and you lose money. I would perfer to just call and let him fire again on the river. At that point, you could consider raising, as he may make a crying call with a pair worse than yours since he can get a showdown for one more bet, and it will be hard for him to threebet without a monster since it looks like you may have slowplayed a huge hand or just hit one.

DcifrThs · #10 06-29-2004, 04:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone want to throw out numbers for when you'd make calls with hands 1 & 5? I was thinking somewhere around 30-1 for #1, 15-1 for #4.

[/ QUOTE ]

odds for calling are a mysterious figure in some respects. i say this because its something i've thought about to myself a great deal...like, "damn, had to fold there, but could i call if the odds were 50% higher? what odds would i need to call?"

BUT THEN, immediately following this thought comes the rational part (more rational in any case) of me that says, "hey, if i was getting 50% better odds, wouldn't the action prior to this call have been extremely heavy? heavy enough to disproportionally reduce my chances of winning relative to the size of the pot? In fact, couldn't it be more wrong to call getting higher odds and needing to do it anyway due to the size of the pot since the gravity of the error makes it much more costly even though the math says its more wrong?"

the result of this internal dialogue is that "it all depends" but higher odds usually means more action, more action usually means better hands are out etc...

see how my crazy mind works?
-Barron