winning or losing?

[Rosie]

I really wanted to ask a question about winning and losing... especially in realtion to PartyPoker (5/10 and 10/20) tables.

This is my first post here so here is a quick history of my experience at Party. I used to find it easy to win consistently at 5/10, and could build a stack up from £250 to say £1500 pretty much on a regular basis over say a 48 hour period by just playing a solid game - then i would often get a great hand cracked two or three times, go on tilt and start losing - often going up to 10/20 to try and make it back etc (probably a familiar tale). I quit playing for a long time and decided to give it another go and here is what has happened so far:

Deposited $500 Monday last week. Played several hours of 5/10 and finished on $1200. CASHED OUT $200
Played Wednesday and Thursday and lost $500 so down to original bankroll of $500. Mostly because I played far too loose, my preflop selection was a joke!
Screwed my head back on on Friday and played almost 18 hours straight at 5/10, moved up to 10/20 with $2000 and finished on Saturday with $3400. CASHED OUT $2400
Then last night, sat down with $1000 at 5/10. It seemed like i was getting sucked out every hand, and was down to $400 after about an hour... clawed it back to $1200 over next 3 hours and moved up to 10/20.
then, 14 hands later (14 flops seen anyway) I was down to $100

in those 14 hands I had AA twice, KK twice AK twice, JJ three times (made a set twice), AQ (hitting 2pair on flop) and a few Ax suited hands. Lost all of them. One particular hand sums up this run I had:

Party, 10/20

can't remember all the details but basically here is what happened:

Rosie is BB and gets A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

The Button, who was steaming, raised and from there is was capped all the way, and another player came along for the ride. The board looked like this

4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Betting was capped all the way

turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
River Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

The Button showed down Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
The other player didnt show.

I was asking why these things happen... and i have understood that my bankroll was probably never going to be big enough for a table like that.

But it all leaves me thinking if I am a winning player or now. I didnt tilt, I kept playing solid...and throughout this 14-hand bad streak, my stats were solid. %36 flops seen (6 handed) 44% flops one over 840 hands

then, the final insult - moved to 5/10 and 2nd hand got dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

again betting capped all the way. Heres how it unfolded

Flop: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]k [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Turn: 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
River: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

he showed 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

busted... and its all over.

How does one deal with these streaks? what kind of bank roll do I realistically need to play 5/10? is $1000 enough?

any thoughts, comments, advice - greatly recieved.

thanks

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
%36 flops seen (6 handed)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think that is a solid longterm number you'll continue to lose.

[ QUOTE ]
How does one deal with these streaks? what kind of bank roll do I realistically need to play 5/10? is $1000 enough?

[/ QUOTE ]
If you are playing full table $2500-3000 or more would be a good amount, if you are playing short handed $4000 or more.


P.S. I do not have enough limbs to count how many times I've dropped $1000 in as short of time as you describe to have. Swings are intense sometimes. That's why you will need a MUCH larger bankroll for these limits if you wish to play in them regularly. If you can afford $1000 for a bankroll, then you should start at 2/4 and work on building it up (and then keep the bankroll for poker, don't take out winnings).

[Rosie]

i think 36% 6-handed is not so bad.. especially in passive pre-flop 5/10 games where BB often gets to see the flop for free. Also, sometimes it will be 4 handed or even 3

What would you recommend is a good % rate, bearing that in mind.

thanks for your comments too! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I am still learning.

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
think 36% 6-handed is not so bad.. especially in passive pre-flop 5/10 games where BB often gets to see the flop for free. Also, sometimes it will be 4 handed or even 3

What would you recommend is a good % rate, bearing that in mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even short handed, you should be playing tight. Some hands go up in value, but some go down. There are some things missing from your stats.

How many hands did you play when you were at 36%? If you were getting great cards, then it might be justified.

You mentioned that you sometimes play 3 or 4 handed. In this case, 36% may be too low.

It depends on many things, but if you are still relatively new to poker, you should probably master the low limit ring games first.

If you find them too boring, you may have a lot of internal work to do before you can actually become a long term winning poker player.

Winning poker requires tremendous discipline on a number of levels. If you don't have that discipline, it is better to admit it to yourself and work on it than deny the facts. Otherwise, you will be doomed to fishiness from the beginining.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
%36 flops seen (6 handed)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think that is a solid longterm number you'll continue to lose.

[ QUOTE ]
How does one deal with these streaks? what kind of bank roll do I realistically need to play 5/10? is $1000 enough?

[/ QUOTE ]
If you are playing full table $2500-3000 or more would be a good amount, if you are playing short handed $4000 or more.


P.S. I do not have enough limbs to count how many times I've dropped $1000 in as short of time as you describe to have. Swings are intense sometimes. That's why you will need a MUCH larger bankroll for these limits if you wish to play in them regularly. If you can afford $1000 for a bankroll, then you should start at 2/4 and work on building it up (and then keep the bankroll for poker, don't take out winnings).

[/ QUOTE ]

schneids is right on. you have my support. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

kenny

[junkmail3]

I'll address something no one else has. Those hands that you showed were some pretty bad beats, that I'm sure you lost a lot of money on. Regardless of your flop %, those beats are going to take your money. But you know you can expect a +EV on most of those, so like the others said, keep your bankroll in your account, don't withdraw, tighten up your game and keep on hammering away.

[Rosie]

hey, thanks everyone for your comments... its really great to get peoples' advice.

I just dont seem comfortable at the lower limits... for various reasons... I find that at $1/$2 I get sucked out on so often. Its difficult to get those typical players at that level to lay down draws and they will call anything regardless of the odds. I know in the long run the odds will go in my favour but i think its mentally tougher to keep taking those bad beats. At 2/4 and 3/6 its slightly different: 10-handed can get so very slow. I like to only play one table at a time so that I can get a good read on people, but at those tables, people come and go and the play is labourous sometimes that it is hard to maintain concentration. My preferred level which is 6-handed 5/10 is where I feel comfortable. I know that I can handle the game at this level and have won many times - not through luck, but through a combination of preflop discipline, read and feel, and taking the odds into the equation. I am still learning new techniques like raising when I know I may be second best to try and give myself correct odds to call on the next round (don't know if this is good or bad yet)as I have not been using it for long enough. My stats generally on a good session would be something like:

hands played: 1000
hands won: 18-22%
showdowns: 75-85%
flops seen: 35-50%
won if flops seen: 39-43%

and i usually play around 1000 hands in a session.

I think its right that the beats I took would be enough to kill anyone. I looked at the hand history, and those 14 hands cost me $846 and the combined pots were $2560. I wasn't steaming and I maintained my discipline throughout. I made one mistake when I checked KK on a flop of J46 and my opponent made two pair with 10,6 on the turn, but other than that i think i played correctly, I might try to post the histories later.

What I am trying to understand though is if the 5/10 games can be beaten with just the basics? I don't play against good players if I can help it, I take player notes and always add bad players to my buddy list and try and follow them. One of the things wondered was that being female, i get a lot of people calling me down with nothing at all - and i read that somewhere too - about the macho side of poor players "she's a girl so she must have no idea". This means I am cautious about bluffing although i do think bluffing is an important part of the game.

if anyone has any thoughts I would again be really happy to hear them... thanks again! rosie x

[TylerD]

I would suggest getting PokerTracker to track your wins and loses (amongst countless other things such as note exporting - do a search here for more info.). I think everyone here would agree that at $55 it would be worth it at twice the price.