Raising for flush draws in NL???

[jslag]

If you are in a multi-way pot with a nut flush draw and you have a middle/low pair on board, is it ever correct to raise even though you're drawing? I know that you would definitely do this in certain limit games, but in NL I'm not sure how to play this.

Obviously, you could get re-raised by TPTK, but if you have a read on your opponents as having a weak top pair or a drawing hand, wouldn't it be correct to make a moderate raise?

I'm thinking something like this... 3 players limp and you limp with Ah 8h on the button. The flop is Jh 8s 6h. The pot is $4.75. UTG checks, MP1 bets $3.00, MP2 calls, and it's up to you.

My thinking is that with 14 outs here, couldn't you justify making a raise up to $6 here? This is a no-brainer in limit, but what about NL..

The reason I'd like the raise here is that you take control of the pot even if you are beat with a holding like JT, KJ, QJ (you would have to think about discounting your 3 outs to the Aces since someone could have limped with AJ). If a rag card comes on the turn, it will probably be checked to you and you would have the option of a free card.

I also think that if someone limped with T9 here and a Q or a 7 hits the turn, that player may go for a check-raise, making a free card even more valuable. Of course, a completed straight may come out firing here with a pot sized bet... in which case I'd have to consider folding.

If the consensus is to NOT raise here, then I would be interested in hearing arguments against it as well as any situations where you might raise in NL for a flush draw, or even an open-ended straight draw with other outs.

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[charlin]

I think a raise would depends on the 1st bet. Is $3.00 minimum? If it is then a $3 reraise would be in order against your typical player....He'll call and if your heart doesn't hit on the turn then you can either semi-bluff for the pot or check for the free card. If he bets the pot or more however a reraise would probably be a mistake. He is probably either wanting a call or reraise to move all in, or he is bluffing/semi-bluffing on top pair and a reraise would probably send him folding.

This is just my experience from mid/low stakes no-limit games.

[jslag]

That was just an example, there's no minimum except the table limit minimum, perhaps $0.50 if playing NL $25 or something.

If he bets the pot or slightly more, can I safely call with so many outs? Obviously a call is justified when he's bet $2-3 dollars since I'm getting implied odds there.

How about if I don't have middle/low pair on board, would a raise be out of the question without the trip outs (2)?

Thanks,

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] jslag [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[Paul2432]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, you could get re-raised by TPTK, but if you have a read on your opponents as having a weak top pair or a drawing hand, wouldn't it be correct to make a moderate raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a situation that calls for a big raise, preferably all-in if it is not too much of an overbet. This gets your money in when your hand is its strongest and maximizes the chance of your opponent folding. Middle pair with and ace overcard and nut flush draw, is a hand strong enough that you don't mind getting called all-in on the flop.

This assumes your opponent will read your hand correctly if the flush comes. If he will pay you off if the flush comes, then calling might be better.

Paul

[jslag]

In most cases I'd rather not raise all-in here, especially if there are three other players to act after me. UTG could have a set and is going for a check-raise himself.

That's why I think a moderate raise is appropriate. And yes, I would want to be paid off when the flush or trips hit... if two others fold and I've scared the player with TPTK a bit with my raise, checking behind him on the turn and then being aggressive on the river might be worthwhile... the stop and go. But generally I'd try to get paid off with a 1/2 or 3/4 pot bet on any flush card, then jam it on the river if he's still following..

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] jslag [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[felson]

[ QUOTE ]
In most cases I'd rather not raise all-in here, especially if there are three other players to act after me. UTG could have a set and is going for a check-raise himself.


[/ QUOTE ]

If UTG has a set, he will probably reraise you again big-time, and you will wish that you had just called on the flop and seen a cheap turn. UTG may even reraise enough that you will have to fold on the flop.

It all depends on your read... if you've really scared the player with your raise, you might want to steal from him even if you miss on the turn.

If depends on your opponent and your read of him. If he is weak & appears to have little, then raising is right. If he appears happy with his hand, then fold or call. Note that if he bets the pot, and if he will generally pot it again on the turn but fold if you make your draw, then you should fold on the flop as you are not getting sufficient pot/implied odds for your call.

[jslag]

[ QUOTE ]
Note that if he bets the pot, and if he will generally pot it again on the turn but fold if you make your draw, then you should fold on the flop as you are not getting sufficient pot/implied odds for your call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great point. I really appreciate your comments. Although, if my read is a little inaccurate, a raise still helps me if my draw comes and he doesn't pay me off. At least I got the extra money from the raise on the flop.

And as I said before, I think playing a Stop & Go (checking behind him on the turn if I hit my nut flush) may counteract the fact that he would fold to a turn bet in the first place. Hopefully the flush card on the turn is his kicker giving him two pair or even trips, though I'd bet cautiously with a pair onboard of course.

[Ghazban]

Stack size is a big consideration here, too. If you have $300 and there's only $5 in the pot and a $2 bet to you, moving all-in is somewhat ridiculous. If I only have 3-5 times the pot size, I'm much more likely to move in right away knowing that, if I'm called, I have tons of outs but I'm not unhappy winning what's in the pot at the moment, either. Similar logic applies if the guy you're up against is on the 3-5 times the pot stack. If there are other people still to act, it gets even more complicated... In general, if I feel my 14 outs are all good, I'm happy pushing in even if I'm behind at the moment. Either your opponent folds a hand that beats yours if you don't improve or you have about a 50/50 chance of improving to the best hand.