A QQ hand

[Jason Strasser]

I was actually referring to the recent WSOP. Where Phil Helmuth folded QQ twice preflop, I think both his opponents showed 77 and JJ (?). Not sure about the JJ, but if you read his website he goes through his thinking where he's very happy with his fold against 77 because the other guy "could've" hit a 7. This has been debated comprehensively in some other forum on 2+2, but I forget where (internet? wpt?)

[ilya]

Oh, ok. I didn't know about those hands. In this case, incidentally, the raiser turned out to have AKo. Not that this matters.

[TankSJ]

How did the Button get down to T180? Did he take a bad beat or has he been chasing? Did he lose a majority of his stack on the previous hand? Is it possible he's on tilt or just throwing in the towel (and chips)? Would an all in by you drive out the MP2 player and get you heads up?

these are things I would be considering.

Just saw that the "raiser" had AKo. Is that MP2 or the Button?

[ilya]

The MP2 had the AKo. The Button had J9s. I didn't know why the Button was in such a fix as I had been moved to the table after it had happened.

[fnurt]

I don't get it. You don't want to play against AA and KK because they're ahead of you, but you don't want to play against the other 54 hands, such as JJ and TT, because you're not a big enough favorite?

The idea that you don't want to be against AQ and KQ is similarly puzzling. Forget the mumbo-jumbo about the Q cutting into your redraws. The fact is that you're simply a big mathematical favorite over these hands.

I think you're giving an awful lot of credit to a single raise, early in the tournament when it's easy for people to toss chips around. As some other posters have alluded to, it's like you're looking for a reason to make a big laydown you can be proud of. The problem is that the "scare factors" here don't come close to justifying it.

I also think you're way too afraid of the all-in player. A player who has been crippled this early in the tournament is not sitting there waiting for AA. Often he just wants to get it over with and will push in with the first nice-looking hand he sees. It could be Q9s for all we know.

The fact that you are worried about the limpers being slowplayers (particularly the 2nd limper) just illustrates to me the fact that you are jumping at shadows. The substantial likelihood is that they will fold and their bets are just dead money that provides you with more, not less, motivation to play this hand.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
...but I don't want to play against QQ or AK either. I don't even really want to play against AQ or KQ since these hands drastically reduce my chances of redrawing successfully if my opponent does pair his overcard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yick. That is fuzzy thinking. I would take QQ v. AQ or QQ for any number of chips for any buy-in in any tournament anywhere ever. Getting the chips in preflop with an opponent who is essentially drawing to 3 outs is what you should be *trying* to do. AK doesn't thrill you, but you are getting more than 1:1 and really you are like a 57% favorite, so it thrills AK even less. I wouldn't worry about QQ, being as it is so unlikely.

Passing up an opportunity to play for all your chips as a better than 60% favorite (as against AQ or KQ) is a mistake, and it will hurt you long term.

[Potowame]

It would be hard for me not to see a flop, You did say you where scared of the Raiser and all in having hands that could out flop you with a overcard, Well that would be ideal for you that they both have A? or K? , this gives them less outs to draw at, you have a made hand. If they both had AK there would only be 4 cards in the deck that could beat you. "thats good"
I just couldn't go without at least seeing the flop.

[ilya]

I'm embarassed that you might think I was trying to show off my 'great laydown.' I honestly don't think that's why I folded...I think I was just playing scared. It was in thinking about it afterwards that I started to think maybe I'd been right, or at least not that wrong.