Poorly played Q-Q hand?

deacsoft · #1 06-16-2004, 01:47 PM

Looks fairly standard to me but just thought I'd double chect.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (10 handed) converter

BB (t1760)
UTG (t1075)
UTG+1 (t2430)
UTG+2 (t1450)
MP1 (t2120)
MP2 (t1045)
MP3 (t565)
CO (t1395)
Hero (t1505)
SB (t2050)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 raises to t100, MP2 calls t100, MP3 folds, CO calls t100, Hero raises to t350, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 raises to t800, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls t450.

Flop: (t1875) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets t900, Hero calls t705 (All-In).

Turn: (t3480) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t3480) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t3480
Main Pot: t3285 (t3285), between MP1 and Hero. > Pot won by MP1 (t3285).
Pot 2: t195 (t195), returned to MP1.

Results in white below: 
MP1 shows Ah Ac (one pair, aces).
Hero shows Qs Qc (one pair, queens).
Outcome: MP1 wins t3480.

TracyMiller · #2 06-16-2004, 01:57 PM

I think maybe calling the reraise was probably OK. But once the flop missed me like that, facing a bet that would put me all-in, I would have gritted my teeth and tossed it away.

cferejohn · #3 06-16-2004, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think maybe calling the reraise was probably OK. But once the flop missed me like that, facing a bet that would put me all-in, I would have gritted my teeth and tossed it away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about others, but I generally wouldn't say that a raggy undercard flop "misses" QQ.

That said, that small preflop re-raise is awfly suspicious. I really don't like to lay down QQ online with an unthreatening board, but unless you'd seen this player making these small re-raises before, it's hard to imagine what else he would do it with.

It's a tough fold though. I don't think I could make it in a $20 online tournament unless I had actually taken a note on a player that a small preflop re-raise means AA/KK (and I try to take this note whenever I see that behavior).

Squirrel · #4 06-16-2004, 02:19 PM

I was thinking the same thing. Flop looks pretty good for Queens.

And in a 20 dollar online tourney, I'm going busted here if I see that flop.

I may fold BTF, but if I call the reraise, no way do I fold that flop.

gergery · #5 06-16-2004, 02:22 PM

In a multi with a buy-in at $30 or higher or with good players, I might be able to lay this down instead of calling his raise to 800 preflop, since its likely he has AA,KK, AK. Once he’s allin on the flop I would clearly fold. I don’t see him limp-reraising with JJ, TT, and he’d have to be pretty loose/agr to push allin with AK. Usually limp-reraise then push on flop is AA or KK particularly in an MTT. By contrast, I do exactly what you did at low level sng.

soxfan70 · #6 06-16-2004, 02:26 PM

My thinking here is not that the flop missed me, but rather it MUST have missed my opponent. I push here as well, and commiseriate with you on the rail.

Truck Wiseman · #7 06-16-2004, 03:11 PM

I suppose the real question is, how many times do you think you are going to run into AK/JJ/TT with this betting pattern and this player?

To me the pre-flop reraise smells an awful lot like a very big pair. But if you do call here, you have also to be prepared to call all-in on the flop as it's highly likely this guy is going to push after such an aggressive pre-flop move. So I think its either fold pre-flop or stake your tournament on a read that he's representing aces. Nasty.

deacsoft · #8 06-16-2004, 03:26 PM

Another question for everyone...

Is it not common for players to largely over play hands like J-J and T-T?

woodguy · #9 06-16-2004, 05:10 PM

Yes, they get overplayed all the time, especially in $30+3 and lower.
IMHO the type of player who overplays these hands is not the type of player to re-raise you pre-flop and not be all-in himself.
Had he just called PF then pushed on that flop, it would be easier to put him on JJ-TT. The re-raise without putting himself all-in looks like an invitation to come over top of him.
(20/20 hindsight notwithstanding [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])
regards,
woodguy

cferejohn · #10 06-16-2004, 05:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is it not common for players to largely over play hands like J-J and T-T?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. However, *usually* when they are overplayed, they are overplayed by the player pushing all-in with them. If the other player had pushed preflop, I would have called with QQ in a heartbeat, and if it is KK-AA, oh well. Making a minimum or close the minimum reraise is pretty darn suspicious, and I've seen it mean AA/KK more often than not.

I washed out of the 1000 WCOOP last year by essentially ignoring this piece of advice. I raised with AJ in LP, got min re-raised, and then ended up all-in on a J high flop against KK.