Blind steal turns into check-raise bluff....

[Gomez22]

Stars $25 NLHE table - 8 handed

I'm CO with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and $28.45

Folded to me, I make it $1.50 to go, button calls, both blinds fold. Button has proven to be a MAJOR calling station... never raises, hardly bets, just calls down(with as little as Q-high that I've seen), but folds if pressured hard....

FLOP($3.35): 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet $3.00, button calls...... nothing unusual here.

TURN($9.35): J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, button bets $3.25, I raise it to $10, button calls..... ummmm... can I say s-h-i-t, now???

RIVER($29.35): 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Check, check.....

Thoughts?

[gavrilo]

I can't say I like even playing this hand in the first place with a button who loves calling, however
If he calls alot and rarely bets and you have King high, why not just check the flop?
I also dislike checkraise bluffing a calling station and raising to $10 is hardly pressuring hard given size of the pot.

[jakeoneil]

Why steal the blinds? Do you need that 35 cents to pay for a bus ticket or something? Honestly, i think that blind stealing is idiodic at this level.

[SkippingGoat]

I think it's pretty well agreed upon that one shouldn't get fancy with a fish. No reason to exhaust all ways trying to get a calling station to fold. Wait until you pick up a hand and then get him to call when you want him to.

[cornell2005]

[ QUOTE ]
Why steal the blinds? Do you need that 35 cents to pay for a bus ticket or something? Honestly, i think that blind stealing is idiodic at this level.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont, plays should be looked at in terms of BB's, not amount of BB's. the games are far too passive at this level not to win these sorts of pots. more importantly, it helps with your image when you are betting real hands later, ect.

[cornell2005]

looks like you understand that you chose the wrong person to try this on. preflop and the flop is ok even vs some calling stations though
id just give it up after the flop or bet out, i dont like the check raise. no real advantage to a check raise here and you make the button feel more pot committed, which a calling station overvalues anyways

[Zag]

So, your evalation of the button: "Button has proven to be a MAJOR calling station... never raises, hardly bets, just calls down(with as little as Q-high that I've seen), " -- Was this made after this hand? You surely didn't play as if this was your opinion of the player.

This is the ideal opponent -- guaranteed not to keep his money. All you need is a decent hand and he will call you down with bottom pair. Or a good draw and he will let you draw at it for free, then pay you off when you hit. Why would you go out of your way to hand him some of your money when you have nothing? All he will do is give it away, but likely not to you.

You bluffed at him on the flop, and then !!!! check-raise bluffed !!!! him on the turn. What were you thinking? Perhaps that he has suddenly changed into a skilled player who is 1. capable of getting aggressive with a sub-par hand and 2. capable of laying down that hand to the check-raise? Think about how silly this is.

Your preflop raise was OK, though you are a bit light for it. After that, the flop missed you, so you are done with the hand. Bluffing a calling station is like setting your money on fire.

I don't play the $25 buy-in tables anymore, but I was beating them pretty consistantly for a while, after a short period of losing. The one change I made (in order to go from losing to winning) was to eliminate the bluff from my repertoire completely. That is, completely. Not once, not ever. It does have a place in the $100 and $200 buy-in tables, but still probably a lot less than you think.

OK, I'm done ranting. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I suspect that you won the hand, anyway. He had a 7, or maybe just a 3. It doesn't mean that your play was correct.

[fourgapper]

Isn't blind stealing idiotic at all levels, unless the
blinds/antes are large relative to stack sizes (such as
in a tourney)? Even at $25-$50, why bother given the
typical pot sizes and stacks?

fourgapper

[Gomez22]

My thoughts on the hand were this:

Button WAS a calling station, but he folded to ANY kind of pressure before this.... sorta like a player that will see all of them as cheaply as possible, but bails at the first sign of trouble(although he stuck through in this hand). Also, if I had AJ in this instance, would I really want to push him outof the pot on the turn?

I was trying to play the hand as IF I had AJ, and just spiked trips... usually I don't make this kind of play, but I thought that this player was too weak to call that size of check-raise without a jack and only 1 card to come.

I was wrong, but he showed Q7o, and I got the lucky suckout.... this move paid off for me later in this session as I tended to get NO respect later on when I had good hands, and a couple of times I ended up HU against this player and he checked through to the river both times against me, 1 hand being a flush draw I was on, so I got 2 free cards there.

I hated how I played this at the time, and I hate it still, but I can see how this kind of play CAN make you money in later hands(just something that I don't think would be very profitable at these limits).... in other words, I learned a lesson here: Bluffing at these limits isn't really worth it.

[cornell2005]

[ QUOTE ]
but I can see how this kind of play CAN make you money in later hands(just something that I don't think would be very profitable at these limits).... in other words, I learned a lesson here: Bluffing at these limits isn't really worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your on the right track, but ill throw this out there also. i dont think in many situations this line is the best possible bluff line: bet, he calls. check, he bets, you raise. id rather either check raise the flop, or bet flop, pot turn. i think you acn get away with the bet, check-raise sometimes, but it very rarely should be most +EV bluffing line. (see why? one reason is it doesnt have many particular advantages, but it makes your opponent "feel" more pot committed, and he calls when he otherwise wouldnt)