Poker Office > Poker Tracker??? - Page 8

BradleyT · #71 06-08-2004, 10:09 AM

You don't get to see the losing players cards though, so it's never complete information.

Joe won with trip 6's. Well what did the guy who was making it 3 bets on every street have? The software doesn't know because he mucked his hand.

Luv2DriveTT · #72 06-09-2004, 12:09 AM

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You don't get to see the losing players cards though, so it's never complete information.

Joe won with trip 6's. Well what did the guy who was making it 3 bets on every street have? The software doesn't know because he mucked his hand.

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Yes you are right, but by using PO I can log on for days on end and get hours worth of performance about who folds pre-flop based on what bets regardless of knowing the final mucked hands. This is of course especially valuable in NL or PL games... this is why I must once again call to have this feature removed from PO.

I think the previous statement from Poker Office Support is very wrong... Lets use Party Poker as an example. YES you can view any table, but you cannot get a hand history downloaded unless you personally play at the table. That is why I think it is unethical to capture hands using Poker Office unless the player is involved in the game.

You can make whatever excuse you want, but in the end it is unethical. Unless this feature is voluntarily removed I will contact the Party support team to request that Poker Office be banned. Remember, I was one of the few users supporting Poker Office for it's ability to determine odds... I am not a zealot.

TimM · #73 06-09-2004, 12:16 AM

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YES you can view any table, but you cannot get a hand history downloaded unless you personally play at the table. That is why I think it is unethical to capture hands using Poker Office unless the player is involved in the game.

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My point was that if Party allows you to view tables without being involved in the game, there is nothing stopping you from writing down what you see with a pen and paper. I fail to see how using more efficient technology to collect the same data somehow makes it unethical.

TLC · #74 06-09-2004, 02:25 AM

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Lets use Party Poker as an example. YES you can view any table, but you cannot get a hand history downloaded unless you personally play at the table.

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You can actually view the Hand History of any game you watched by clicking the "Last Hand #" link in the upper right corner of the table window. From that window, you view all the games you watched in their entirety (including some hands not shown on the table). In addition, you can request the Hand History via email for any game if you know the game #.

Luv2DriveTT · #75 06-09-2004, 08:09 AM

Because its reletivly easy to write a script that searches for you (if I knew your nick at Party) every 5 minutes. Once the new table is found, the script just needs to close the existing table and move to the new one. Poker Office would automatically start capturing the history once again.

I still think there is nothing wrong with watching a table without playing, you can do that in a casino in real life already. You can even take notes in a real life casino. But I DARE anyone to set up a camera and a computer to capture all the hands into a database at the Taj... then we can see how long the jail sentance will be. Why should online be any different?

I vote YES - to automated database captures of hands IF the user is playing in the hand

I vote NO - to automated database captures of hands IF the user is NOT playing in the hand

Luv2DriveTT [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

PokerOffice Support · #76 06-09-2004, 01:40 PM

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My point was that if Party allows you to view tables without being involved in the game, there is nothing stopping you from writing down what you see with a pen and paper. I fail to see how using more efficient technology to collect the same data somehow makes it unethical.

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Agreed, this was our final view on the issue as well. It is really up to Party Poker to decide whether a room should be visible or not. I play a lot of backgammon on the net, and at several backgammon servers you can choose to play behind closed doors. And while we are on the subject, Party Poker showing mucked cards in hand histories - how much more unethical can it be?? Do THAT in a casino and we're talking about being locked up for good...

PokerOffice is by NO means trying to implement an unethical product, we are just a bunch of programming PokerPlayers who enjoys online poker and was sick of having to deal with Hand histories.

PokerOffice Support · #77 06-09-2004, 01:51 PM

I do agree that it is a bordeline case whether it is unethical or not, but my standpoint is still that it is not unethical. PokerOffice is ONLY capturing public information that is out there for anyone to see. Lets make a comparison to the Stock Market where, as long as the information is the same for everyone, you can use whatever statistical/analysis/advisory software you like to format this information - as long as the information is PUBLIC. Should you take advantage of information that is not public, i.e. insider trade, it is not legal to take advantage of this information.

TimM · #78 06-09-2004, 01:56 PM

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And while we are on the subject, Party Poker showing mucked cards in hand histories - how much more unethical can it be?? Do THAT in a casino and we're talking about being locked up for good...

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They only show mucked showdown hands that call on the river, hands that a player would have a right to ask to see in most casinos. I guess the logic is if he pays to see my hand i have a right to see his as well, and it's also an anti-collusion tool. Paradise includes these hands in its hand histories as well.

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PokerOffice is by NO means trying to implement an unethical product, we are just a bunch of programming PokerPlayers who enjoys online poker and was sick of having to deal with Hand histories.

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My only complaint is if the program gave real time advice about how to play a hand in progress. But if poker sites were to simply say this is allowed, because any player could do it and it would also be unenforcable to prohibit, I wouldn't be able to say much about it. Instead they are taking a different road, using their client software to detect such programs.

PokerOffice Support · #79 06-09-2004, 02:48 PM

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My only complaint is if the program gave real time advice about how to play a hand in progress. But if poker sites were to simply say this is allowed, because any player could do it and it would also be unenforcable to prohibit, I wouldn't be able to say much about it. Instead they are taking a different road, using their client software to detect such programs.

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Contrary to some other odds calculating software on the market, PokerOffice does not give any advice to the player what so ever. It only provides statistics and probabilities. Fortunately, and what makes Texas HoldEm a great game for gamble, is that it is a very complex game with incomplete information. It will be many years from now, if ever, that we will se a computer capable of playing at the same level as the best humans. It is simply to many parameters and involves to complex opponent modeling, something which the human brain is excellent at.

Luv2DriveTT · #80 06-09-2004, 03:00 PM

I will be sending this thread to my attorney to get his feedback. From his initial once-over he believes what PO is doing might be in violation of the existing terms of Party Poker. MIGHT being the critical word, he is not sure.

Reguardless, I will lobby to make sure PO cannot do this anymore at Party. I hope others do the same at other sites.

Luv2DriveTT