Am I learning anything playing in freerolls?

[Smasharoo]

I realize that this is sort of a vague topic, but I’m hoping some of the regular MTT players could give me some insight. I just recently dipped my toe into the internet poker world after about three years of limit games from 2/4 to 10/20 depending on my cash situation. I’ve never taken poker money very seriously and have bounced around from limit to limit. I’ve been a tournament Bridge player since I was twelve and that game has always been more of a +EV proposition for me money wise and I’m a lot more profitable playing a rubber for $1 a point than I am playing 10/20. I’m a winning limit player, even at 10/20, but I’m not sure I can see myself putting aside $6,000 to play when I could put it to better use playing Bridge. I realize I could use one consolidated bankroll for both games, but that doesn’t sit well in my mind. So usually I end up playing 2/4.

At any rate, to get back on topic, I’ve started to be more interested in NL tournaments, but I’m not comfortable enough to spend money on them yet. I’ve never played much NL, although I’ve always read everything I can get my hands on regarding any sort of card game so I think I’m fairly well educated, if not experienced. Freerolls online seemed like a good place to learn the game without any monetary risk and with the potential for some small rewards. It was my thought initially that because there was no entry fee the play would be somewhat looser than a cash buy in tournament for the first few rounds and then tighten up to close to what an average low buy in cash MTT would play like. That brings me to the question posed by the title of this post.

Am I learning anything playing freerolls except how to beat very loose aggressive NL players? I’ve done very well in the first dozen or so that I’ve played in, much better than I had imagined I would. The problem is I can’t really tell if this is a matter of skill on my part, that the transition from limit to NL isn’t as severe as I had thought, or if the competition was just very weak. I’ve been playing on Ultimatebet as they seem to have a good number of free MTTs every day and most have some sort of prize that I hope would add enough value that at least the top third of the field would play up to money MTT par. I realize my sample set is exceedingly small thus far, but the play I’ve seen has been fairly consistent. Trapping post flop in the early rounds seems trivially easy. There seems to be no penalty for simply avoiding coin flip type hands preflop, and every incentive to punish simply atrocious post flop play until probably 90 minutes into the contest. I can’t conceive of why anyone would push or call an all in that early with anything other than AA/KK. To be honest even with AA I’m hesitant to call all in in early position because of the prospect of two or three callers in addition to me. I realize that’s probably a leak, but it seems so much more +EV in terms of my stack to just wait to play post flop until later rounds.

As the rounds progress further and the blinds increase I feel like Dorothy who has left the Kansas of loose aggressive players and landed in the OZ of the weak tight munchkins. Now preflop raises pull down blind after blind with little long term chip risk. I begin to get the impression that WT play goes a long way in the early rounds and players condition themselves to it as a winning strategy wire to wire because it’s been so successful in the early rounds. The play does get much tougher for me at around 20 or so players as a general rule and I get to practice my favorite part of NL tournaments, the puzzle solving, analysis part. I’ll be the first to admit that I haven’t mastered this yet, and I tens to play perhaps too aggressively not transitioning from the easy WT pickings to a more disciplined tight aggressive NL style. I also get a little overly concerned with stack size and on more than one occasion I’ve done the math to figure out where I would have placed if I just folded out and it’s higher than where I land with play about half of the time. Maybe that’s normal, I just have little to reference it against Looking at the payout structures, which aside from unique equal pay situations where the top 25 gain entry to a monthly MTT or whatnot it seems like aggression is worth the risk but I have difficulty judging if I play TOO aggressively. I‘ve read this forum off and on for a few years now and never bothered to post because I didn‘t feel I had any new questions or any real meaningful answers that wouldn‘t amount to “I agree with Greg“ or whomever.

I think the appeal of the low risk, high potential reward of MTT has gotten to me, though. I have a few hundred “bonus dollars” at UB sitting around in my account pleading with me to throw some cash in and grind them into reality. I’d like to throw them into some cash MTTs but I’m still not sure I’d have any idea what I’m doing. So to make a very simple question and a short story exceedingly long…

How different is the play in freerolls as compared to $5 or $10 buy in MTTs?
Thanks in advance for making it this far and for any insight you may be able to offer.

Smash

[sammiK7os]

If you want to play some good freeroll tournaments may i recommed bugsys club.

The cash games are terrible but you dont need to deposit to play the freerolls. They have a league with the top finishers each month winning prizes (think you have to play 15 tourneys a month) and they have tournaments every hour mostly Nl holdem but also stud and omaha.

The play here seems much more similar to real money tournaments as everyone is very proud of their league status and i found it a really good way to learn. Only downside is that most of the tournaments have around 400 starters which would maybe make it a bit of a bore for you if there is no cash reward at the end of you hours of work.

Any way if you want to learn more before you invest your money i would definitly start there.

I am off to bed now so I going to be lazy and let others respond to your difference between them question [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[Smasharoo]

I don't care about the rewards. It's the play I'm intrested in. I'll check it out. Thank you.

[uuDevil]

I'm not an experienced MTT player, so I too would like to see some more informed opinions.

Like you I have mostly played freerolls along with a few cheap (<=$10) tourneys. There does seem to be a difference in that there are fewer all-in w/ nothing crazies at the beginning. I don't mind getting their chips when I can so if they get lucky and knock me out early, that's fine.

FYI, The Gaming Club and other prima sites have multiple freerolls every day (up to $1000 total prizes but ~3000 entries). Also, Truepoker has a $500 freeroll on saturdays (400 entries). I don't know that I've learned that much by playing these, but I do have a few extra bucks in my bankroll. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[La Brujita]

I think I can give a bit of an answer to this question. I play multis in the mostly in the 30-200 range, at least for the last two months or so. I used to play mostly sit and gos and ring games. I also play quite a few freerolls for a variety of reasons but mostly to cool down and have a bit of fun while I am multitabling.

Others may have different opinions but my answer to your question is that definitely freerolls make you a better multi player. One of the other reasons I play them is to learn about the rhythm and ebbs and flows of tournaments if that makes sense.

Poker is in many ways about situational adjustments so what may work in a loose aggressive freeroll might not work in a $10 tournament. In my opinion what playing a lot of tournaments teaches you is as you move along how to adjust to having a big stack, small stack, as blinds increase etc. There is a certain blueprint or feel to playing in multis that you get from experience. This process can be hastened by freerolls. What I am talking about are subtle things like how you need to continue accumulating chips, when to be aggressive, how to play the bubble etc.

As a separate point I will tell you that in my opinion the play in the $3000 freeroll on Saturday at Intercasino is as good (or as bad depending on perspective) as you will find in a $5-10 multi. That make sense since it is basically a $6+0 tournament.

I know this post is a bit vague but I hope it makes some sense to you.

Best regards

[uuDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
I know this post is a bit vague but I hope it makes some sense to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only as vague as necessary. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I've read some of your posts so I know it's accurate. It does make sense, as I feel like I am better able to recognize and respond appropriately to more situations than I have in the past. Hopefully this is what the OP was looking for too. Thanks.

[brewmeister6]

I'm in a similar boat. Is their some tournament poker books that you suggest, or should i just throw myself into a bunch of freerolls...?

[Smasharoo]

I'd do both. Learn and play, learn and play. Frerolls, if nothing else will teach you how tournament blind structure and payouts and that sort of thing work. Plus, free is free. A shot at anything while you learn is better than losing money while you learn. I'm very new at NL, but I'd say that if you're not finishing in the top quarter of most freerolls you play in you're not ready to play for cash. I've definately learned a lot tactically playing in them, I'm just curious how big the adjustment will be when I step up. I'd to be the guy bringing a knife to a gunfight if you know what I mean.

[uuDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm very new at NL, but I'd say that if you're not finishing in the top quarter of most freerolls you play in you're not ready to play for cash.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm. Curious how you picked this number. Here are my stats for 97 tourneys, mostly freerolls:

Avg # players 757.1
Avg % finish 68.1%
std dev 25.9%
mode % 89.8%
median % 78.5%

I'm not sure if I'm holding the knife or if I'm the knifee. However, my return on investment (ROI) in freerolls is infinite! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[La Brujita]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in a similar boat. Is their some tournament poker books that you suggest, or should i just throw myself into a bunch of freerolls...?

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the most important parts of being a good tournament player in my mind is getting your money in in plus ev situations. Basically away from the money that is just playing solid winning poker. Of course that is much easier said then done. I guess my point is the most important books on nl tournament poker are the books that teach you how to play regular poker.

Here is my list of books starting from ground zero I would read in order to become a good nl tournament player. Please note other lists may vary.

1. Theory of Poker
2. Hold'em Poker/Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players (I am not convinced the first is necessary for good players)
3. Pot Limit and NL Poker
4. Tournament Poker for Advanced Players (critical book)
5. No Limit Hold'em: The New Players Guide (others seem to like this book more than me so I am bumping it up)
6. Super/System

I have also learned an incredible amount from reading these forums.

I was thinking about freerolls last night after posting and I realized once you get close to the money people start to take the game much more seriously. For example, the crazy loose aggressive game you see early becomes weak tight around the bubble. Do others find the same happens?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just curious how big the adjustment will be when I step up. I'd to be the guy bringing a knife to a gunfight if you know what I mean.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the adjustment will be that huge. When I started to step up and play bigger tournaments I was a bit nervous but found the play to be weak by many players. There are of course many good players as well. I feel as you progress in the tournament the stronger players become concentrated and it becomes a bit tougher, but earlier it is pretty weak. I see a lot of terrible play in the nightly tournaments at Party.

Just as an example (and only mildly a bad beat story) in a nightly $150nl at Party I had QsJs and limped in ep in a relatively loose passive table. There were two callers (both bad players) and the flop came Q-J-8 three suited. I check raised all in and was called and knocked out by K-8. My check raise was a bit over a pot sized raise. There were two great players at my table, TipsyJoker and Gank (a WSOP bracelet winner this year). The other players were not very good.

I guess I am sharing this story to bring up a few points.

1. It is often the bad players at your table who determine how good the table will be rather than the good (since you can pick where to battle).

2. Many players in the big events at Party qualify from smaller events.

3. When you enter a tournament and play your game you need not be intimidated.