Poor Result or Poor Play

[Kenshin]

SB1 is the closest I have ever come to encountering a true manaic. Unfortunately, I have limited experience against this player type. Did I overplay my hand? If so, what would you have done differently?

Kenshin

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, CO folds, Button folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls.

River: (14.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB shows Ac Ah (two pair, aces and sevens).
Hero shows Qh Kd (two pair, kings and sevens).
Outcome: SB wins 20.50 BB. </font>

[J.R.]

I prefer to call this down and bet if checked to against a normal opponent (unless they are very check-raise happy but will bluff/thin value bet, in which case I might check behind as a free card isn't too dangerous). You say sb is a maniac, but there are varying types of manaics. If you haven't read Inside the Poker Mind by John Feeney, it may be worth your while to pick it up and examine its analysis of maniacs.

Generally, there are different varities of manicas, some slow down on the flop, some go the whole way, some only overplay headsup, etc. Many manaics can play well postflop, as they have lots of experience doing so, realise that there is less of an edge to be gained by gambling becuase the relative hand values do not change much post-flop and often know how to leverage their crazy image the most when they catch a good hand, which they will do a little more frequently than a tight player because they play more hands.

Of course this isn't always true, as there are maniacs and then there are maniacs, but how badly your opponent would overplay a worse hand here is something that's hard to answer based on solely on the "maniac" label. When to give him "credit" is a difficult question that comes with time and experience, IMO.

[LetsRock]

Wow. I am very confused by this action on both your parts.

Why didn't you raise the flop? Here's the dialogue I "hear" on this hand:

Flop
SB: "I have a K or I can beat your big K?"
Hero: "I have AX or a PP lower than KK".....

The rest is just a testosterone match with no dialogue so I won't go there.

If you raise on the flop you can find out a little more info. Flop Raise = "Can you really beat my big K?" When he 3 bets, you'll know to be worried. He may be a maniac, but maniacs catch cards too. Once I get 3-bet here, I'm usually content to call down with a hand like yours, because there are a lot of hands that beat you right from the start. (If I'm playing against a certified maniac, I might cap the flop and put one raise on the turn - but no more aggression than that from me.) Any 7 beats you on the flop, and a garbage str8 and flush develop by the river. Maniacs are good at catching these kinds of hands.

There's no way you cold have known he had AA, but there's plenty of other legitimate hands that beat you not to mention all of the hands that a maniac may have stumbled upon.

BTW, you may want to rethink your maniac label - I've never seen a maniac slow play anything, and not raising AA is as slow play as you can get. Maniacs like to bet everything as much as they can.

[asdf1234]

I think you can find better spots to put in seven bets on the expensive street than with one pair against a maniac.

[Kenshin]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. I am very confused by this action on both your parts.

Why didn't you raise the flop? Here's the dialogue I "hear" on this hand:

Flop
SB: "I have a K or I can beat your big K?"
Hero: "I have AX or a PP lower than KK".....

The rest is just a testosterone match with no dialogue so I won't go there.

If you raise on the flop you can find out a little more info. Flop Raise = "Can you really beat my big K?" When he 3 bets, you'll know to be worried. He may be a maniac, but maniacs catch cards too. Once I get 3-bet here, I'm usually content to call down with a hand like yours, because there are a lot of hands that beat you right from the start. (If I'm playing against a certified maniac, I might cap the flop and put one raise on the turn - but no more aggression than that from me.) Any 7 beats you on the flop, and a garbage str8 and flush develop by the river. Maniacs are good at catching these kinds of hands.

There's no way you cold have known he had AA, but there's plenty of other legitimate hands that beat you not to mention all of the hands that a maniac may have stumbled upon.

BTW, you may want to rethink your maniac label - I've never seen a maniac slow play anything, and not raising AA is as slow play as you can get. Maniacs like to bet everything as much as they can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, I did not think I misplayed it that badly ;-).

The maniac frequently reraised any preflop show of strength without regard to his position.

Thus, I had little reason to suspect a real hand preflop.

I waited until the turn to raise out of a desire to charge him on later streets.

I believe this decision is correct (I fear AA KK KA and little else on the flop).

My decisions become decidedly more dicey after his turn reraise. Against a normal opponent I would automatically muck the hand; however, I witnessed him make this move with no piece of the board previously.

I probably should have called down at this point. Instead, I absolutely butchered the river.

Thank you for your feedback,

Kenshin

PS: I do not understand your last comment. As far I can tell, the maniac bet or raised at every opportunity.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
My decisions become decidedly more dicey after his turn reraise. Against a normal opponent I would automatically muck the hand; however, I witnessed him make this move with no piece of the board previously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you played fine until the river.