Elementary Pot Odds Question

[goodfelladh]

Hey all, any help with this quick question would be appreciated...

Calculating pot odds isn't really a problem for me -- I've committed many of the more common odds/situations to memory so that I don't have to worry about doing a lot of calculations at the table. The issue I am having is deciding which odds I should use in certain situations. For example:

I flop four to a flush. Now I know that I am at 1.86-to-1 dog to make my flush on the turn and river. But I am a 4.11-to-1 dog if I only consider making my flush on the turn. So would I need to be getting better than 1.86 or 4.11 to 1 in order to call in this situation? The 4-1 seems to make more sense to me, but I'm not totally sure.

Also, if I were to use the 1.86-to-1 number, what odds would I need to call a bet if I missed on the turn, because haven't I already committed myself to the river if I used this 1.86-to-1 odds on the flop?

Any help his appreciated. I did a search and found a lot of good information on pot odds, but this issue is still confusing me.

[PseudoPserious]

Hi,

I'm no expert, so take the following with a grain of salt...

[ QUOTE ]
I flop four to a flush. Now I know that I am at 1.86-to-1 dog to make my flush on the turn and river. But I am a 4.11-to-1 dog if I only consider making my flush on the turn. So would I need to be getting better than 1.86 or 4.11 to 1 in order to call in this situation? The 4-1 seems to make more sense to me, but I'm not totally sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's what I do:
1) Compare the pot odds to the odds of making the flush on the next card (4:1). If this is favorable, then at least a call is mandatory.
2) If the immediate pot odds are a little bit shy of 4:1, I'll call if I think the future action will make up the deficit. If I'm drawing to the nuts, this is almost always the case.

I don't use the 1.86:1 number, but if you're going to, you compare it to (current pot + opponents' turn action + opponents' river action) : (your flop bets + your turn bets).

What you CAN'T do is compare 1.86:1 to (current pot)your flop bets).

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if I were to use the 1.86-to-1 number, what odds would I need to call a bet if I missed on the turn, because haven't I already committed myself to the river if I used this 1.86-to-1 odds on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

You use the 4:1 number here. This is the easy case...one card to come, you make it or you don't, classic pot odds problem. No matter why you decided to call on the flop, just re-evaluate the odds you're getting on the turn. The past is the past and can't be undone, and all that.

Hope this makes sense,
PP

[Jezebel]

Dave,

It is my belief that in Hold'em you should use the odds for one card to come and take it one street at a time. Flush draws are a poor example for demostrating pot odds since it is almost never correct to fold a four flush. So lets look at an example of a gutshot straight draw using both methods.

Lets assume there are 8sb in the pot on the flop and we are closing the action. We will also assume that if we hit our draw it will win. We will also assume that our opponent will only pay off one bet on both the turn and river Using two card to come odds we would say that we are roughly a 5-1 dog to improve by the river. There are 8sb in the pot and it will cost us 3 sb more to see the river which gives us effective odds of 10-3. In order for us to call in this situation we would need to collect an additional 5sb if we hit from our opponent on the turn or river. Since we have decided that our opponent will only pay off 2 more bb, we would fold since we are not getting correct odds to continue, but this would be an incorrect fold on the flop.

If we take it street by street we would look at this way. There are 8sb in the pot and it costs me 1sb to see the turn. We are just under an 11-1 dog to improve on the turn. Now we only have to imply 3sb from our opponent to make this call correct. If we make our hand on the turn our opponent will pay us off two more BB, so we do have odds to call.
If we miss on the turn we may throw our hand away since the odds will not be as attactive to continue, but it was still correct for us to see the turn.

Using the two card odds will cause you to fold too many hands. There is no need to commit yourself to see the river, and no need to use 2 card odds, or effective odds. Effective odds are more useful for figuring your odds for calling a made hand down than for deciding whether or not to try and improve your hand. For example, you get raised on the turn and there is 10bb in the pot. You have a hand that is unlikely to improve but may be ahead. If you call the turn raise you will also be committed to call a river bet. The question you must ask is will I win this hand more than 2 times in 11? If so you would call down.

[goodfelladh]

Thanks guys... that was exactly the type of clarification I was looking for. Using the 4-1 odds, taking it one street at a time, is definitely what makes the most sense to me. But, I at least wanted to make sure that I was correct in assuming that it was OK to go about it in this way. Thanks again.