Why do I always lose these hands?

MastiffPaul · #1 06-04-2004, 05:20 AM

Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but it seems like I always lose these hands. AKo, the flop misses me, but since I have overcards and a gutshot straight, I figure betting is my best option. It didn't help that I was up for the night until I lost this hand, and it was my last hand of the night whether I won or lost. I'm so frustrated right now.

I had no read on the button.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, MP folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players) 
Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players) 
Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players) 
Hero bets, CO folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB
Main Pot: 10.25 BB, between Hero and Button. > Pot won by Button (10.25 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Kd Ac (one pair, fours).
Button shows As Jc (two pair, jacks and fours).
Outcome: Button wins 10.25 BB.

laceratedsky · #2 06-04-2004, 05:40 AM

You gotta stop being the agressor in this hand. Remember, you have NOTHING. It's almost guaranteed that with 2 opponents left, someone at least has a pair of 4s. No one is going to lay down to your single bet here with a decent pair.

Check call on the turn, or check fold. Definitely check fold on the River.

laceratedsky

MastiffPaul · #3 06-04-2004, 06:51 AM

"It's almost guaranteed that with 2 opponents left, someone at least has a pair of 4s."

I've seen similar situations where this has not been the case. I see ace high take the occasional multiway pot in .50/1 Party Poker. Neither of my opponents had given me reason to believe either of them had a pair.

And isn't checking after being the aggressor preflop and on the flop just inviting a semibluff against me? Too often I find players exploiting my tightness by showing aggression the minute I become passive.

cjromero · #4 06-04-2004, 08:15 AM

I don't see the point in continuing with aggression on the turn here. Both cutoff and the button called a raise cold preflop. That doesn't necessarily tell you anything about their hands at the micro level, but it could.

I would bet the flop as you did, given your overcards and your straight draw, but any Party micro player with a Q or a J (and maybe a 4) is staying in this hand.

Why are you leading out when the turn paired fours? It doesn't help your hand, and anyone with a Q, J, or 4 is staying in. I would go into check/call mode on the turn.

The river is another blank. You missed your draw and two others have stayed in the pot. Sometimes one player will stay in with Ace high to the river, but almost never have I seen two players do it. You are clearly behind at this point. It is check and fold time.

T0asty · #5 06-04-2004, 09:46 AM

This is a tricky hand when you miss the flop, you could try CRing the flop and then check the turn hoping for everyone to check fearing the CR, you can then check/call the river or check/fold.

I ususally see the turn card and fold.

ZootMurph · #6 06-04-2004, 10:15 AM

With AK in horrible position, you are screwed. You have to bet out on the turn... you have two over cards and a gutshot straight draw... probably 10 outs.

When you still have two callers after raising preflop and betting the flop, you only have two choices... keep betting out knowing you will be called by a pair of Queens or Jacks or try a check/raise to see if that scares everyone out or gets checked through for a free card. I bet out and let the chips fall where they may.

When you hit nothing on the river, you should check/fold. You aren't winning often enough to make the call worth it. You have nothing... you really need to save yourself a bet and let it go... thereby only losing 2.5 BB on this hand instead of 3.5 BB. In the long run, you'll save yourself a lot of BB if you follow Kenny Rogers' advice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Unfortunately, PP .5/1 is filled with calling stations that won't let a hand go if they hit anything... so you aren't bluffing him out. Also, you can't be frustrated in losing with AK... It's a good drawing hand, but without help it isn't going to win often enough to continue when you hit nothing.

chief444 · #7 06-04-2004, 11:19 AM

I don't really see a problem continuing the aggression on the flop and even the turn since you likely have 10 outs and will probably call a bet anyway. However I see no point in betting the river against two typical .5/1 opponents.

cjromero · #8 06-04-2004, 11:25 AM

I just don't like betting out on the turn. Party micro guys will stay in with any piece of the flop, and I think it's reasonable to assume that he is behind both players when a blank comes on the turn. He is right to call a bet on the turn, but maybe the two guys will do him a favor and check it through given his preflop raise and bet on the flop. Is that not worth trying since they are unlikely to fold at this point?

I also don't think all of his 10 outs are clean outs. Is it that inconceivable that at least one of the other guys has KQ, KJ, AQ, or AJ? Just because they didn't raise the flop doesn't mean they don't have any of those hands, especially at the micro level. It is typically loose, passive after all.

chief444 · #9 06-04-2004, 11:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't like betting out on the turn. Party micro guys will stay in with any piece of the flop, and I think it's reasonable to assume that he is behind both players when a blank comes on the turn. He is right to call a bet on the turn, but maybe the two guys will do him a favor and check it through given his preflop raise and bet on the flop. Is that not worth trying since they are unlikely to fold at this point?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have a problem with checking the turn either. Normally at a low limit game either checking or betting out will have the same net result, being that you end up paying 1BB to see the river. Betting out gives you a somewhat small chance to win the pot there. Checking gives you a somewhat small chance to see the river for free but also makes it more likely that a worse hand will bluff at you on the river if you miss. There are pros and cons to each play. That's why I said my only real gripe was with the river bet.

juanez · #10 06-04-2004, 12:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And isn't checking after being the aggressor preflop and on the flop just inviting a semibluff against me? Too often I find players exploiting my tightness by showing aggression the minute I become passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

A few well placed check/raises should deter some of this with the more observant players. Of course, complete fish will not even notice...