Should I have known my hand was no good here?

[aces_full]

Paradise .10 BB NL $10 max 5 handed

I'm in the BB with KQo. I have $22, MP has $9, button has $6. UTG folds,MP raises to .30,button calls .30, SB folds, I call .20.

Flop: ($.95)
KK8-suits not important.

I have top trips (unless MP raised with AK). I decide to slowplay since there is no flush or straight draw on the board. I check, MP checks, button bets .20, I call, planning to check-raise the turn, MP calls. I figure the button either has a weak king, or made a weak steal attempt. But why did MP call? They both can't have kings.

Turn: ($1.55)

The seemingly innocent 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check, this time MP comes out and bets .50. Button min-raises to $1. I re-raise to $4, MP flat calls $3.50, button re raises $1.50 (all-in). I call, MP calls.

River: ($18.05) A
Final board [KK86A] suits unimportant. I check, MP checks, button is all-in.


Results in white below:

<font color="white">
I show (KQo) three of a kind kings
MP shows (66) full house, sixes full of kings
button shows (KJo) three of a kind kings, lower kicker
MP wins $18.05

</font>

[peiper]

I really don't see how you could have laid that hand down.

In hindsight you should have made a large bet on the flop, but the guy only had two outs. I would chalk it up to a bad beat and break him next time.

[aces_full]

I'm not really sure what I was trying to acomplish by check-calling on the flop. It was three handed, and either somebody had the other king, or they didn't. Especially in hindsight, given the button's willingness to commit all his chips with the KJ I should have led right out, or check-raised the flop, forcing the guy wtih the 66 to call a huge bet cold.

Looking back at the hand, I think my mistake was the turn raise. I was playing at another table, so I wasn't paying as much attention to the betting patterns as I should have been. The fact that MP went raise,check-call,bet, should have made me slow down and think. Especially since the turn was seemingly a brick. My first read was that the button betting $.20 into a $.95 pot was either an attempt to steal with position, or he had a weak king and was putting out a feeler bet.

It's not so much the fact that MP bet the turn that scares me, it's the fact that the button raised. Only one of them could have a king, so the betting action should have told me that one of them was not afraid of the king, meaning somebody had a full house either with K8 or 66. Although I called, I really think I should have folded. Is my logic corrrect here, or am I giving my opponents too much credit by assigning meaning to their actions? For instance, could it have been possible that MP had AA and decided to test the waters on the turn to see where he stood? To me it seems hard to guess. I was in a bad position on the turn. I had to decide how to respond to the button's actions with MP still to act behind me. On a final note, although I think I should have folded, I feel my raising was less wrong than just flat calling.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

At the .10BB level you can give your opponent less credit, but if you were the preflop raiser with AK and the flop came KK8 no draws wouldn't check in hopes of getting some action?

You knew you were behind when they both called your check-raise, this is why you do this on the flop. If you get called in 2 spots, its by a King and a FH unless they are muppets.

The only reason you didn't get stacked off was MP was sure one of you two had a bigger full. There was just to much action for there not to be another full house.

I'd have stacked you off on the turn, but I'm probably to loose but I can't put you on K8 or K6 if you do I'm rebuying, if you have 88 I'll take my lumps and feel like an idiot.

This is a good example of why you don't play KQ/J after a raise and call. You either drag tiny pots or you lose huge stacks of chips because if you get a lot of action, you cant know your hand is good unless you hit full houses and str8s.

MarkV.

[aces_full]

"This is a good example of why you don't play KQ/J after a raise and call. You either drag tiny pots or you lose huge stacks of chips because if you get a lot of action, you cant know your hand is good unless you hit full houses and str8s."

You bring up a good point. In a full game, I would agree. There's no way I'm calling a pre-flop raise with KQ (most of the time). However I play mostly short handed. I enjoy shorthanded play, and I do pretty well, but I'm by no means an expert at it. In a short game I adjust my calling requirements based on odds. My experience has shown me that usually I'm right on, but sometimes I'm not. After all, odds are odds. I once got broke very first hand of a heads up NL match. I had AK, flopped AK, got broke by my opponent with AA. In a short handed game, most players raising requirements have loosened up (in this case MP was raising with 66) and likewise I loosen up my calling requirements based on this fact, and based on the fact that it's less likely that your hand is dominated. On the flop, I could safely eliminate KK as a possible hand. But I figured with that particular board in a 5 handed game with three seeing the flop, it was pretty unlikely that the case king was even out. I'm not sure my logic is correct, but I would have been more inclined to be worried if the flop contained only one K. And as it turns out, I was correct. It still doesn't make up for the fact that I should have either bet the flop or check-raised there.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

I can understand your point to a point, but when the action starts getting heavy on the turn don't you start to think a better king might be out or the FH?

Especially given the fact it was a multi-way pot that was raised preflop.

I don't see how your decision is any easier on the flop then it is on the turn. A check-raise is still going to get a lot of action when its behind and almost none with its ahead except when players are muppets. Maybe the shorthanded games is full of muppets who think that hand strengths change that dramatically just because not as many hands are delt in. My suggestion is even 5-6 handed tables monster pots need monster hands except heads up.

[ QUOTE ]
But I figured with that particular board in a 5 handed game with three seeing the flop, it was pretty unlikely that the case king was even out.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is this. If the case K isn't out your going to get NO action from a hand that you do dominate. If the case King is out, given that the pot was raised what are the chances the player is going to give you all that action with a worse K or a hand that trips beat? Any reasonable player knows there is at least 1 king out.

Yes, You are less likely to be dominated 5 handed, but when you have 100BB behind you and you have trips 2nd Kicker and your getting 3 way action with it, hadn't you wished you'd folded preflop rather then over calling out of position? When the pots get big, your 2nd best kicker is still 2nd best kicker even if its a 5 handed game.

MarkV.