Help me overcome my weak play

faman · #1 05-21-2004, 12:51 PM

Here are three hands from last night where I played very badly. I'm trying to figure out how to play better in these types of situations.

Hand #1
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button 3-bets, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 caps, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (25.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players) 
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button raises, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (18.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players) 
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 folds, MP3 checks, Button bets, BB folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (21.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players) 
Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 23.25 BB
Main Pot: 23.25 BB, between Hero and Button.

This may just be the worst I've ever played a hand [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Not really sure what I was thinking on this one. Preflop, I didn't open raise UTG because I was worried about knocking everyone out (probably shouldn't be a concern at this level), and was planning to go for a limp-reraise. Not sure why I decided to back down. After all of the preflop action I was convinced that someone had rockets (I don't usually play this scared, not sure what was up this hand), so I just kicked into calldown mode. Should I have been in there raising on this hand?

Hand #2
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players) 
SB bets, BB folds, MP2 raises, Hero folds, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players) 
SB checks, MP2 bets, SB calls.

River: (6 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players) 
SB checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 6 BB
Main Pot: 6 BB, between MP2 and SB.

Was my fold to the flop raise too weak here? This was one of my first hands at the table so i didn't have any reads, and was worried about running into kicker problems.

Hand #3
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB raises, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds.

Flop: (13 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players) 
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero raises, CO calls, Button folds, BB 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players) 
BB bets, Hero calls, CO folds.

River: (13.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players) 
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB
Main Pot: 15.50 BB, between BB and Hero.

Should I consider laying the hand down on the flop after the BB 3-bet? He raised preflop which could indicate that he has me dominated. However the pot is pretty large at this point, which is why I decided to check-call him down.

Bill Smith · #2 05-21-2004, 01:12 PM

I don't think a hand by hand is necessary, but my advice to you is to reconsider how you play hands preflop.

A9o and KJo are generally not calling hands because they create situations like the ones in which you seem to be losing money. Think about it this way: What kind of flop are you looking for from A9o? Well, if you're looking for an A, you should be betting when that ace hits... but, when someone bets into you, or the flop is already raised, you have to question whether you belong in the hand. The same thing applies to KJo. Unless you can force everyone out, you have a lot of reason to question if your kicker is good when you're reraised.

Meanwhile, with KK, I'd be raising (and in this case, capping) preflop, and probably the flop too. Yes, AA is a concern, but you have to get as much money into the pot as possible on these hands. I had a similar situation yesterday and my failure to aggressively play my hand cost me 2-3 BB, at least.

Shore those parts of your game, and get on the good side of Lady Luck again, and you'll be back to your winning ways.

tech · #3 05-21-2004, 01:13 PM

My suggestion is to work on your preflop play first. IMO, you made mistakes before the flop in all three hands. That makes it much more difficult to play postflop.

Hand 1: Raise KK preflop at these limits anytime, anywhere, without a second thought.

Hand 2: Raise or fold this hand in this spot preflop. If you raise, you hope to drive out the blinds and get heads-up with MP2.

Hand 3: Fold preflop. You will lose more than you make with KJo in a spot like this.

B Dids · #4 05-21-2004, 01:22 PM

Hand 1- you know what you did wrong. Don't worry about an UTG raise scaring people out of the pot. Moreover, that raise helps clean up some of the Ax players who will beat you.

Hand 2- if you're going to play this hand from the button, play it for a raise. I think a raise here against one limper and the blinds is fine.

I think your raise is weak. Hands that beat you typically would raise preflop save maybe AT (and in that case you're screwed). I'd be tempted to re-raise.

Hand 3- I've just started laying down KJo. Play if if the table's right. I think going into check/call like you did here is fine.

tiltaholic · #5 05-21-2004, 01:40 PM

Hi faman,
As the extreme beginner that I am take my comments for what they're worth, but I think I also have similar problems and here are my thoughts.

I agree with the previous posters with respect to the preflop play aspect. My preflop play is still very bad (loose). I used to think A9o was decent. I bought pokertracker mainly because cold hard numbers convince me of things, and even with a very very small number of hands I've been dealth A9o 40 times and only won twice.
It just is not a strong hand unless you flop huge. KJo still gives me problems so I have decided to just fold it mostly. KK is the opposite. It must be raised.

I can't recommend pokertracker enough if you're going to play a lot online. Just the savings from A9o (an easy preflop fold decision) have more that paid for the cost of the program.

-t

Raiser · #6 05-21-2004, 01:57 PM

Hey faman,

Haven't read other posts. Sorry if redundant.

#1 - With KK you should be raising pre-flop and willing to put in the last raise in almost any situation (In fact I'm hard pressed to think of a case where I wouldn't cap PF at Party .5/1 with KK). Fearing knocking others out is not a good reason. If you do knock everyone out, you win 1.5 BB. It doesn't seem like a lot but it's likely close to your average profit with this hand anyway.

You also need to bet/raise the flop. I wouldn't fear being beat until an opponent 3-bets/caps the flop. It's hard to comment beyond this because of how you played the hand up to this point.

#2 - Fold preflop. I'll make a raise here if it's a blind steal situation, otherwise it's a fold.

#3 - KJo has been brought up before around here. There are 2 camps. One is the "I don't play it outside the blinds unless it's a steal situation." The other camp will play it in LP with a bunch of others in the pot, hoping to flop a monster. I belong to the first camp. KJo is too often dominated when there are other limpers. If it were suited I'd play it. Post flop looks good here.

faman · #7 05-21-2004, 03:03 PM

Thanks for all the responses! It looks like the common theme is that I need a lot of work on my preflop play, specifically I need to stop playing so many trouble hands like A9 and KJ.

On a side note, what about A9s? I like suited aces a lot (especially at this level), I take it that would be playable as long as I'm willing to throw it away if I don't hit the flop hard? And how about KJs?

Here are the results of the hands for anyone interested:

Hand #1: Button had QQ, MHIG
Hand #2: MP2 takes it down with A6 offsuit (turns out I had him dominated with my A9 [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])
Hand #3: BB had KK and I was super dominated [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

tiltaholic · #8 05-21-2004, 03:14 PM

I will play (limp) A9s and KJs anywhere, and sometimes will raise with KJs when I'm first in the pot in mid or late position. I think I may once or twice have raised A9s on the button as a steal but I don't know if thats a good idea to do. I will do that with KJs too. I'm more sure about A9s than KJs as a hand overhall, I'm playing both of them mainly for the flush (and straight w/KJs). I don't yet feel comfortable with KJs though when the flush draw is not there.

Hope this helps and maybe some more experienced posters will weigh in on it too.
-t

Bill Smith · #9 05-21-2004, 03:44 PM

I think most people will agree that A9s and KJs are better hands because of the flush potential. I would generally call with KJs from any position, and I'd call A9s with no raisers from a late position (or occasionally steal-raise).

B Dids · #10 05-21-2004, 03:45 PM

This relates to your 66 hand. A9s is a hand you should limp from anywhere and maybe raise in LP.