Online Legality In WA State

[elwoodblues]

Are raked poker games authorized? How about private raked games, or raked games that haven't been licensed by whatever gambling commission they have? It's not as easy as saying "I can play poker with my buddies in a home game or at the local card club." There are key distinctions...the home game is probably not raked and the card club probably has to get a license to operate a raked game.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
I got a kick out of this one: "it is illegal for operators in such countries to accept wagers from people in the United States." Hello? Says who? If it is legal in their country --- THEN IT IS LEGAL.

I mean, if oh, let's say, The Republic of Belize made it illegal for people in the United States to drink milk -- Would the stores immediately clear their shelves? Would bankrupt Americian Dairy Farmers have to petition the World Courts for compensation? Hell, no. Another country can't tell us what we can or can't do in our own country.

This notion that America can pass laws making what citizens of other countries do legally in their own countries according to their own countries laws illegal - ABSURD!

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If you do business with consumers in another country, you are bound by that country's laws. That's basic stuff.

If one party to a transaction is in the US, then the US can regulate it. Now, maybe the offshore person will never get prosecuted in the US because they never come here, but they've still violated US law.

To use your example, Belize cannot make it illegal to drink milk in the US, but it sure can make it illegal for US companies to sell milk in Belize, even if the orders are placed on the internet and the seller never leaves the US.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I got a kick out of this one: "it is illegal for operators in such countries to accept wagers from people in the United States." Hello? Says who? If it is legal in their country --- THEN IT IS LEGAL.

I mean, if oh, let's say, The Republic of Belize made it illegal for people in the United States to drink milk -- Would the stores immediately clear their shelves? Would bankrupt Americian Dairy Farmers have to petition the World Courts for compensation? Hell, no. Another country can't tell us what we can or can't do in our own country.

This notion that America can pass laws making what citizens of other countries do legally in their own countries according to their own countries laws illegal - ABSURD!

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do business with consumers in another country, you are bound by that country's laws. That's basic stuff.

If one party to a transaction is in the US, then the US can regulate it. Now, maybe the offshore person will never get prosecuted in the US because they never come here, but they've still violated US law.

To use your example, Belize cannot make it illegal to drink milk in the US, but it sure can make it illegal for US companies to sell milk in Belize, even if the orders are placed on the internet and the seller never leaves the US.

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But in the case of online poker, the only thing that's going accross borders is cash from a third party - not some product such as crates of milk that can be stopped at the shipyard either on the way in or out. All 'illegal' transactions (which are legal in the country they're actually taking place in) are between Neteller and PartyPoker.com (for instance) at your request while you happen to be in the US. I suppose you could probably find some sort of gangster or something that has been prosecuted using offshore bank accounts to launder money or make/accept payment for murders-for-hire or something, which would be somehow analagous to online poker (if not ridiculously inflated).

[cardcounter0]

It has been established in the WSE case that the "gambling activity" takes place where the server is located. The only reason WSE ran into trouble was the transmission of SPORTS BETTING information, which falls under the Federal Wire Act.

So you are correct. If an internet poker room wanted to locate a server in WA State, they would have to get a license like the other card rooms there. Do card rooms in Las Vegas have to get a WA State license? No. Can people from WA State travel to Las Vegas and legally play poker? Yes.

As far as making it illegal for operators in other countries to accept bets from the people in US, well, I guess those operators better plan on staying out of the US. Doesn't have anything to do with the people making the bets.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
But in the case of online poker, the only thing that's going accross borders is cash from a third party - not some product such as crates of milk that can be stopped at the shipyard either on the way in or out. All 'illegal' transactions (which are legal in the country they're actually taking place in) are between Neteller and PartyPoker.com (for instance) at your request while you happen to be in the US. I suppose you could probably find some sort of gangster or something that has been prosecuted using offshore bank accounts to launder money or make/accept payment for murders-for-hire or something, which would be somehow analagous to online poker (if not ridiculously inflated).

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Even if the money is passing between two foreign financial institutions, you are still in the US authorizing the transaction, and that is why US law applies.

Under most of these state gambling laws, it's not the movement of cash that matters so much as the "transmission of gambling information" such as placing bets, deciding whether to raise or fold, etc., and if you're sitting in the US making those decisions, you may be in violation of state law.

[MadSci]

[ QUOTE ]
...I got a kick out of this one: "it is illegal for operators in such countries to accept wagers from people in the United States." Hello? Says who? If it is legal in their country --- THEN IT IS LEGAL.

I mean, if oh, let's say, The Republic of Belize made it illegal for people in the United States to drink milk -- Would the stores immediately clear their shelves? Would bankrupt Americian Dairy Farmers have to petition the World Courts for compensation? Hell, no. Another country can't tell us what we can or can't do in our own country.

This notion that America can pass laws making what citizens of other countries do legally in their own countries according to their own countries laws illegal - ABSURD!

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn straight. Unfortunately, "we" (US government) do it all the time. For example, do you think Columbia WANTS to shoot down suspected drug-delivery planes? They do it because we insist (and provide the radar).

Even the lame attempt to keep United Statesians from betting through foreign-based web sites is legally bogus, under our trade agreements. Antigua and Barbuda have sued through the WTO for the US to cease and desist. The US restricts the Caribbean businesses, when they don't prevent US companies from selling stuff there. That is against our treaties, it doesn't work economically, and more important, it ain't right.

[elwoodblues]

Was the WSE case a federal case? If so, then that is where the "gambling activity" for the purposes of the Federal Wire Act. That definition of gambling activity, while perhaps persuasive to WA courts, would hardly be binding.

[Sarge85]

Doesn't state law supercede Federal Law?

State rights vs Federal rights

I could be wrong...

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

State law does in fact supercede federal law. However, in the case of federal law, more specifically the Wire Wager Act, it appears as though this particular law does not apply to online poker as it's interpreted now, according to this site. It all hinges on the phrase "sporting event or contest" and whether the 'contest' part includes casino games (poker). It has been supported through legislation and previous rulings that it does not. However, I would imagine there are people who would seek to reverse this interpretation and that there is some small chance it could possibly be done.

I guess what that does for us is eliminate the possibility of problems with the feds or of the states using the Wire Act to help their case. This just leaves your home state to deal with on its own - however they deal with gambling, online in particular.

[elwoodblues]

The "sporting event or contest" phrase is an interesting one. Ultimately the question is whether "sporting" modifies both event and contest