Fishing in against a big pair

Mackas · #1 05-13-2004, 07:33 AM

$100 NLHE intertops/party:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (10 handed) converter

UTG+2 ($202.80)
MP1 ($95.60)
MP2 ($94)
Hero ($156.20)
CO ($280.45)
Button ($253.27)
SB ($21)
BB ($109.35)
UTG ($111.70)
UTG+1 ($116.50)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $2, Hero raises to $7, CO calls $7, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, MP2 calls $5.

Flop: ($24) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players) 
MP2 checks, Hero checks, CO bets $10, MP2 folds, Hero calls $10.

Turn: ($44) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players) 
Hero checks, CO bets $20, Hero raises to $50, CO raises to $263.45 (All-In), Hero calls $89.20 (All-In).

River: ($446.65) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in) 

Final Pot: $446.65

Hero shows Ad As (two pair, aces and sevens).
CO shows 7s 9s (full house, sevens full of nines).
Outcome: CO wins $446.65.

Now, I imagine there's quite a bit I did wrong here. The table was relatively tight, hence only raising it to 7 preflop. I though that was enough to weed out the muck but hopefully encourage someone along. That may have been the first mistake. I had been playing relatively tight (I was multi-tabling to clear a bonus) and so would have thought the raise, even only to 7 would have been repsected. Mr 97 was a decent player and aggressive hence the check/call, check/raise strategy. To be honest, given the call preflop I put him on either a big Ace or a big pair, calling to see if an ace hit. Obvioulsy when he reraised all in alarm bells went off but I couldn't think of any hand involving a seven that he would have played preflop other than 77 (as I say he was decent player so I ruled out A7s). 77 and 88 (and QQ) were the hands I was really worried about but figured they were unlikely given the preflop raise and he would play the hand the same way with a big pair JJ, KK and even AQ. Anyway I reluctantly called (bad call?) and got shown 97, house on the river was irrelevant by then.

As I say I have a feeling I did a lot wrong here. I have two questions. Less importantly where was my big mistake?

More importantly what do you guys think of the idea of fishing in w a hand like 97s for that sort of raise when you know you're up against a big pair? As I say the player in question played well throughout the session and rather than stick this down to a bad beat I have a feeling he knew what he was doing. I'm just not sure that that necessarily makes it right. So is it worth fishing in against an overpair with a hand like this (that you really need to hit big) for a raise of 3-4 x BB or are you just throwing money away in the longterm?

I guess a lot of you might take the answer to this for granted but I would appreciate it if anyone could give their thoughts and reasoning one way or the other.

Mackas · #2 05-13-2004, 07:39 AM

I should have added with respect to the all in call I knew I was potentially in trouble here but figured in the end I could be up against AQs, AQo, KK, QQ, JJ, 77 or 88. I thought it about 50/50, if not slightly in my favour that if the hand were randomly one of the above I would be in OK shape (is this wrong?) To be honest I didn't think he would have played 78, or 7x at all.

umdpoker · #3 05-13-2004, 11:20 AM

i am sorta confused as to how much you are actually calling of his all-in raise. i hate the way they word these things. are you calling another $89, or just $39 on top of what was already in there? if you only have to call $39, then you are pretty much pot committed. if, however, you had to call another $89, i think i would fold here. his actions have to impact what you think his holdings are. 77, 88, and 78s are all possible if he knows he can get you to pay off when he flops big. and more importantly, he knows he will have position on you. he may think you have ak/aq, so he can steal the pot when it comes all rags. i notice a lot of people doing this at the nl tables. it is probably a good strategy considering you will flop a pair with ak/aq less than half of the time. obviously qq is a very strong possibility as well, because he played the hand as qq most likely would. i am just starting to convert to nl, so my analysis is probably still weak/tight. i really don't see a decent player playing aq this way though.

Mackas · #4 05-13-2004, 11:36 AM

The call was for $89, not $39 [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

I think I misplayed this in a couple of places, including the call.

But what I am most interested in is the merits of his play. I am not criticising it but genuinely wondering whether its something I should be working on in my game in terms of the implied odds obviously being v big if you hit. On the other hand if you start calling reasonable preflop raises w suited semi connectors and the likes (would this extend to small pairs hoping to trip the flop?) even though implied odds might be good you're going to bleed a lot of chips quickly when you miss 90% of the flops (assuming you don't intend to mix it up with one weak pair after the flop).

I would have laid his hand down preflop for that reason, but was wondering does that mean I'm playing too tight in those situations?

CrisBrown · #5 05-13-2004, 02:26 PM

Hi Mackas,

This goes back to a discussion from a day or two ago about the play of AA (and big pairs in general).

The basic rule of thumb is that with an unimproved AA, you want to maximize the pre-flop money (when you're certainly ahead), and minimize the post-flop money (when you may be behind). Obviously, if your AA improves (e.g.: flopping a set, or hitting a straight or flush at the turn) this will change. But it's rarely correct to get all-in post-flop on an unimproved big pair, just as it's rarely correct to get all-in post-flop on TPTK.

I think your opponent's play was fine. He's not going to go broke on an unimproved 97s, but you might (and did) on an unimproved big pair. That's what implied odds hands are all about: taking advantage of someone who will "marry" a hand and stay in after it's beaten.

The defense to this, as described above, is to be cautious with big pairs (and TPTK) after the flop. Don't pay off those implied odds. So long as you don't pay off implied odds, your opponents are making FTOP mistakes to chase you, and over the long run their money will end up in your stack when you have big pairs. Conversely, if you do pay off the implied odds (as you did here), they're playing correctly to call you, and over the long run your big pairs will lose money.

Hope this helps,

Cris

schwza · #6 05-13-2004, 03:20 PM

His pre-flop call is made much better by the fact that you both have pretty decent stacks. If one of you had more like 40 bb's instead of 80, I think his pre-flop call would be a poor play.

aces_full · #7 05-13-2004, 03:27 PM

Why didn't you bet the flop? You raised pre-flop, indicating a big pair or AK. If you assumed your opponents called your raise with big cards, then you have the best hand on the flop.

When you check, your opponent could be betting for two reasons: He could have a piece of the flop, or maybe when you checked he put you on AK and he was trying to buy the pot. You just don't know for sure unless you have seen him play hands like 67,78,79,77,88 for raises, or until he bets/raises the turn. Why not find out now. You should have led at the flop for $10-$20. If he raises, well then it's an easy fold unless you are absoultely certain that he would not call your raise with any hand containing a 7.

His call of your raise was not a mistake. You only made it 3.5BB to go. He has position, and he has a hand that can't easily be broken. If he got nothing on the flop, he's folding. Contrary to what you might think, in NL these are exactly the types of hands you want to be calling raises with. You either hit the flop hard, or you fold, but you always know where you stand. Hands like AQ,AJ,AT,KQ,KJ,JQ are the hands that most often call, but really should be folded without a thought. When I break someone with AA,KK,or AK they are most likely holding one of those hands, or sometimes even Ax or Kx if they are total idiots. Just think about it, if you called a pre-flop raise with AQ, what do you do if you flop an A? Can you be sure the pre-flop raiser doesn't have AA, or AK? What if instead you flop a Q? Once again AA, and KK have you beat, and AK can still outrun you.