perspective **OT**

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
violence, breeds voilence

agreed davey, but how do we stop this? not in theory, in actuality. how do we stop it NOW?

i don't think there is an answer to this qustion because we are "pot-commited". therein lies the problem. i'm afaraid things are going to get much worse before they get better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think there is an answer to this, history is history it cant be changed and I dont know now the box is opened how we get the lid back on, unfortunatley human beheviour seems to be conflict driven, on small scales look at some of the flame wars on here, look at history and look at the present conflicts all over Africa, the middle east problem plus conflict under the surface in the balkans, humans seem to create and thrive on conflict.

From a day to day point of view as individuls it doesnt matter the only change in history is with the 24 hr media its in our face this increases our fear and makes it seem more real in our day to day lives in fact its not, even looking at 9/11 its a major thing but in reality the amount of lives touched by it (in real terms not watching on the tv) was small compared to the population of the US or even compared to those who have died in the war on terror since.

In fact the world probably has bigger problems aids for example is spreading like wildfire in the third world, poverty and misery is rife even in our own countries.

Someone said about me looking at the odds of being involved in a terror attack, of course they are small even working in central london otherwiise I wouldnt take the job, but when getting on the tube like I did yesterday you still are thinking is somthing going to happen, or when I have been flying into heathrow the last few months I have still been thinking is someone down there planning to shoot this down as we fly over london. The fact is cos I think like this the terrorists have in effect won and no amount of countries invaded many miles from where I live is going to change that nagging thought and that is the power of terrorism.

[Festus22]

Hell no I don't think any atrocity can be justified but I don't believe that's the only criteria for us doing what we're doing in Iraq AND our presence in the Middle East in general.

If killing one's population automatically meant US intervention, then we'd be in China, Sudan, North Korea and a few others.

And if it's proof you want regarding interest = oil, then maybe you can tell me some other reason why we have a large military base in Saudi Arabia. Maybe just to protect their shining democratic model?

And one more point - what the heck do you drive that requires $51 worth of gas to fill? It's a good thing we really don't care about Middle East oil. Who needs it (wink, wink)?

[Slacker13]

Festus, I may disagree with you on basically every point you make but one the greatest libertys we have is freedom of speach, which is the very thing these people didn't have.

[ QUOTE ]
what the heck do you drive that requires $51 worth of gas to fill

[/ QUOTE ]
I just purchased a 2004 F150 Lariat Super Crew, fully loaded, chrome running boards the whole works and it gets an impressive 11.4 miles per gallon.

Good luck at the tables. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Festus22]

Thank you for your civil response.

Good luck to you as well.

[GWB]

[ QUOTE ]
All 5 pushed him to the ground and they proceeded to remove the head like a butcher slicing a ham roast of a pig. The head did not come off easily, so there was some sawing and tugging for 10 seconds or so....then holds this mans head by the hair while still spouting from the Koran.



[/ QUOTE ]
You could have given us a warning to skip over this line if we are squeamish. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
but the images are so severe that they likely could traumatize many young people forever.

[/ QUOTE ]
Edited images would be OK (plus easy access for adults to as much as they want to see). The point is, we can not use the graphic nature as an excuse to give this cruel beheading a pass (meanwhile repeating the mild abuse videos endlessly).

[ QUOTE ]
I watched this video because I think it marks a time where the revenge has started for our other atrocities. I want to understand what happens to these boys who are going to pay the ultimate price because the US intelligence felt that humiliating prisoners and "sleep management" etc was not torture, just a method of softening. I’m afraid that this prisoner abuse has led to this, and this beheading is just the start

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you forgotten that Daniel Pearl was also beheaded?

This is not revenge (that is only their convenient excuse), this is a continuation of years of terrorists acts.

<font color="red">Question to the Zoo:</font>

Was this a legitimate act of revenge, or is "revenge" just an excuse the terrorists are using for maximum effect?

W

[Jim Easton]

[ QUOTE ]
I just purchased a 2004 F150 Lariat Super Crew,

[/ QUOTE ]

Gas must be cheap where you live to fill a 30 gallon tank for $51.

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to understand what happens to these boys who are going to pay the ultimate price because the US intelligence felt that humiliating prisoners and "sleep management" etc was not torture, just a method of softening.

[/ QUOTE ]

The beheading and any other graphic acts of violence aren't due to such obvious negative acts by the U.S. Until the average American citizen sees things from a global perspective, that the U.S., even one that treats prisoners kindly and respectively, is still an unwelcomed imperalist aggressor content on forcing it's own agenda and morals on other cultures for its own gain, the violence will not stop on either end.

September 11 didn't happen because "the terrorists hate freedom", military might isn't the answer in Iraq, and the US is kidding itself if it believes they are the one true good in the world, fighting the forces of evil. Until we can get past the blinding nationalism in this country, we're doomed to a constant sense of confusion as to why everyone hates us and won't allow us to come to their country and fix everything for them.

FWIW, I'm an American, who takes no pride in the actions of our government and the public that supports them.

[Slacker13]

I think I actually had a 1/4 tank. I live in the Miami/Ft Lauderdale area, were over $2 per gallon. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

It runs like a champ on 87 octane.

[roGER]

Dilbert,

There is not a single piece of evidence linking the destruction of the WTC with Iraq.

The highjackers, and Bin-Laden family comes from Saudi-Arabia.

Please don't go around repeating lies - there's quite enough in the media and on the net without you spreading them too.

- roGER

[CORed]

Regarding WWI, you are mostly correct. The U.S. didn't declare war until 1917, and didn't have troops on the ground in Europe until 1918, the year the war ended. We did send a lot of troops in, and I think our involvment ended the war sooner than it would have otherwise ended, but I doubt the outcome would have been much different had we not gotten involved.

Regarding WWII, although the U.S did not declare war until late 1941, we provided massive aid to the United Kingdom and were engaged in a de-facto naval war against the German U-Boat fleet starting in 1939 or 1940. I doubt the UK would have survived without our aid. I'm sure Roosevelt would have liked to get involved sooner, but there was massive opposition in the U.S. to any involvment in "foreign wars" which evaporated after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Keep in mind that 1940 was an election year. Had Roosevelt brought us into the war in 1939, it is very likely that he would have been defeated in that election.

You are probably correct that had the U.S. become fully involved sooner Hitler wouldn't have gotten as far as he did. However, the same can be said for France and the UK. Hitler committed lots of treaty violations and agressive acts prior to the 1939 invasion of Poland, going back at least to the 1936 occupation of the Rhineland, and including the occupation of Czechoslovakia and Austria. France and Britain ignored and, in the case of the Sudetenland portion of Czechoslovakia, condoned these actions, while Hitler continued to build up his armaments and troop strength, in violation of the Treaty of Verasailles. Hindsight is 20/20, but had France and Britain taken firm action against Hitler before the invasion of Poland, a lot of lives would have been saved.