Playing 88

[D.H.]

I basically follow the starting hands that Lee Jones suggests in WLLHE. But 88 (among a few others) bother me. Lee says to raise with this hand in middle and late position but I don't feel very comfortable doing this.

Let's say I'm in late position and there are 3 limpers (not unusual at Party 1/2 which I usually play). When raising this hand I'm almost sure that the limpers will call me, sometimes the blinds will fold. Seems like the only way I can win this hand is if I flop a set (and if so, I might as well play the same way with any PP?).

I would like to hear how some other people play this. And how do you play the flop if

* There is one overcard and everybody checks up to you
* There is one overcard and one player bets
* The few times when you actually have top pair.

In the last case my experience is that I bet and get at least one caller. Then of course an overcard comes on the turn. Now what?

Any comments appreciated.

[joker122]

If you don't feel comfortable doing it then why do it? Whether you raise with 88 pf or just call will not significantly affect your win rate. It's a very borderline raising hand for many people (along with KQo, AJo, and 99, etc.) The point is you're really not giving up much, if anything at all, by not raising. It would be a different story if you were unsure about raising with a hand like AQ or something, because that is one of those big edges you need to push.

I personally do not raise with it.

[Kenshin]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't feel comfortable doing it then why do it? Whether you raise with 88 pf or just call will not significantly affect your win rate. It's a very borderline raising hand for many people (along with KQo, AJo, and 99, etc.) The point is you're really not giving up much, if anything at all, by not raising. It would be a different story if you were unsure about raising with a hand like AQ or something, because that is one of those big edges you need to push.

I personally do not raise with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with joker. I rarely choose to raise with 88. That said, you might want to consider prior to acting whether you can buy the button. Assuming you can, 88 might warrent a raise.

Good luck,

Kenshin

[Rico Suave]

Hey D.H.

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say I'm in late position and there are 3 limpers

[/ QUOTE ]

I would limp in that spot.

[ QUOTE ]
Lee says to raise with this hand in middle and late position but I don't feel very comfortable doing this.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have not read Lee in a while, but perhaps he is referring to open raising from MP or LP.

It is hard to reply on how to play this hand with 1 overcard or 2 overcards, etc. I would suggest posting some specific hands.

--Rico

[chesspain]

If I have 88 and three others have already limped, then I am joining the Bunny Hop with them. However, I will usually openraise with 88 regardless of my position.

[Dylan Wade]

I've never read WLLHE, but that's exactly how I'll play 88 Preflop in loose games. I want to limp up front and raise after a couple loose limpers. The idea is that if you're getting three limpers (or four, or two..) who are comming in to see a flop very often, your 88 is going to be by far the best hand. You're making them pay more for their garbage. Very clearly a good raise visavis FTOP. It's true that 88 is going to have a hard time making the best hand at the showdown agaist many loose limpers, but this does not make the value raise any less correct (well actually it does make it just a tiny bit less correct). The reason is, by the first three cards you have a pretty good idea whether or not 88 is going to be pulling the pot or not. If you have an overpair, there's a good chance you'll win, -- set, very good chance, etc. Something like 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is a good flop to test the waters with 88. 88 has a good chance of pulling the pot here because you're putting your opposition on exactly 1 medium overcard. 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] might not be as safe against a big crowd.

Raising 88 in EP isn't really a great idea either. The reason is twofold. First of all, you're basing your raise off of no information that your hand is the best hand. How do you know nobody behind you holds AA? You don't, but if you are in MP or LP facing loose limpers, you can say it's quite unlikely that you're facing AA or KK, or JJ,TT etc..Secondly, you might encourage hands you dominate to fold, like 22,33, 44, 67s etc. These are hands you want in the game with you. Why weed them out?


In a tight game, 88 might not be quite a raising hand, even after limpers and in LP. The reason is because you can't be sure you're holding the best hand. SUppose your opponents are tight, but too passive to raise 99,TT, or AK. You still are likely a favorite, but the raise goes way down in value against a *tight* crowd, as opposed to a *loose* crowd, where the raise is cut-and-dry correct.

[Crumpled Ear]

One advantage to raising with 88 in late position has not yet been mentioned. If the game is real passive, you might find that it's checked around to you on the flop. You can then either bet and perhaps take the pot right there or take a free card and possibly catch your set on the turn.

[Dylan Wade]

I believe this its true that this edge isn't quite as large as something like AQ, but certainly in LP it's a good idea to raise anyway. There are two reasons I feel this way...

First, I think 88 is a hand that's very easy to play post flop in LP against weak players. You pretty much know when it's the best hand, and know when it's not. Only if you were unable to play 88 properly post-flop should you not push the edge pre-flop. If you knew you could play post-flop perfectly...or.. let's say everyone's all-in pre-flop (for 2 SB) you *must* push the edge. Not doing this is leaving money at the table plain and simple.

Secondly, there is a strange thing about weak players. Sometimes they get smart and stop chasing their hands against better players. However, when you push these small edges (obviously provided you're not playing terrible post-flop) you reinforce your weak opponent's prejeduce of you as a lucky crazy player. A great example of this is when I push my 12+++ out draws to the fullest. A LOT of people think it's stupid to keep re-raising on the come, even though you're getting called 5-way action which MORE THAN COMPENSATES. This play is so cruicial to dominating low-limits, but ironically, also it is also looked upon as stupid from weak "sunglass wearing" players who think you're uber-fish.