A few hands from last night

dana33 · #1 05-06-2004, 07:33 PM

I think I played the following hands reasonably well -- just missed my draws or my opponents made theirs. Please let me know if you agree or disagree.

Hand 1. I raised the turn to "clean up" my possible ace out. Anyone want to argue that should I have just called instead?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, Hero calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players) 
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players) 
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB folds, BB calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players) 
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

Results in white below: 
BB shows 9c Kc (two pair, nines and threes).
Hero shows Ah 4h (one pair, threes).
Outcome: BB wins 6.50 BB. 

Hand 2. The preflop 3-bettor is a loose raiser, so I didn't really fear him. I slowed down after the flop, because I'm fearing a straight or slowplayed trips.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 3-bets, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (24 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players) 
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 3-bets, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (19.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players) 
BB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Button calls.

River: (24.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players) 
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, Button calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 27.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Qc Qd (two pair, queens and eights).
UTG+1 shows 9c 9s (straight, jack high).
Button shows Ks Kc (two pair, kings and eights).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 27.50 BB. 

Hand 3. Same loose raiser preflop as before. On the turn, my thinking was: "Don't fear the flush" (until I got 3-bet). When the fourth spade came on the river, my thinking was: "I'm screwed." But with a pot this big, I still thought I had to call.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (18.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players) 
BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (14.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players) 
BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 3-bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (27.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players) 
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP3 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 30.25 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG shows Ad 6s (flush, ace high).
UTG+1 shows 5s Ks (flush, ace high).
Hero shows Ac Jc (two pair, aces and jacks).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 30.25 BB. 

Hand 4. I figured that against 1 limper and the SB, the preflop raise was justified. Agree, disagree? Any argument for check/calling the river here once the board pairs?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players) 
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players) 
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (7.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players) 
SB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Qs Jh (two pair, jacks and tens).
SB shows 4d Tc (full house, tens full of fours).
Outcome: SB wins 11.50 BB.

dana33 · #2 05-07-2004, 01:40 PM

I'm bumping this in the hope that I at least get ONE reply.

Shalara · #3 05-07-2004, 02:29 PM

I'll give it a shot.

Hand One: I don't call Axs in early, because I don't like playing top pair low kicker out of position. Nor do I like getting stuck with a draw out of position. That being said... I'd fold the turn. I see that you only need a 2 or a heart to make your hand. But the pot is so small. And even if you do make it, you aren't likely to get much out of it. It seems like a high-risk to low-reward scenario, especially because you don't know if anyone will call afterward. A raise might fold a higher ace, but I think a bet will just as likely fold one.

Given that, do you think a bet on the river would have folded the other guy in light of your raise? If I'd been him, I would have feared a slow-played straight, a set of 3s, or 2 pair.

Hand 2: I like the flop action. Very nice, especially against a loose raiser.

I wonder what these other people called all these raises with... are they loose also? I'd be somewhat wary of JJ or an overpair. Still, I think the raise on the turn was a good one on your part. If you are behind, you *might* be able to get heads up, or perhaps get a free card on a later street. And who knows... you *might* even fold a flush draw. Nice play. Good call only calling the 3-bet. Even though it's from a maniac, the other two have to have something.

Unbelievable river. UTG+1 is an idiot. He had massive odds once the flop hit, but he could have been drawing dead even then, and calling the raise in the first place, pre-flop, when he knows MP1 is just going to re-raise is kind of dumb. Too bad... not surprised to see the button hand though. Overall, you played this hand beautifully.

Hand 3: Perfect every street.

Hand 4: My heads-up play is ...um... not stellar. By any means. Still, it looks good to me.

Sam T. · #4 05-07-2004, 03:55 PM

Hand One: Why are you raising the turn? When you're drawing like this, I'm not sure you want to chase these other guys out. If you're last to bet and others are already in for a bet, sure, but not when the raise comes to your right and you're going to make people call two. Also you're putting in two bets with a tiny pot, so you're no longer getting odds to draw the flush.

Hand two: Not an easy hand, but with that board, you may want to make the tough lay-down on the river. No way you're ahead.

Hand Three: The 3-bet is a nightmare, and the fourth spade is death. With a smaller pot you might lay down, but at this level it's tough.

Hand Four: Even with this number of people, I'm not sure you raise PF. SB is an idiot for not taking more of your money.

dana33 · #5 05-07-2004, 04:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand One: Why are you raising the turn? When you're drawing like this, I'm not sure you want to chase these other guys out. If you're last to bet and others are already in for a bet, sure, but not when the raise comes to your right and you're going to make people call two. Also you're putting in two bets with a tiny pot, so you're no longer getting odds to draw the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
My reasoning was that an ace was a possible out if I got other aces with bigger kickers to fold. Also, I don't remember if I noticed at the time, but I had a gutshot straight draw as well. This meant a total of 15 outs (9 hearts + 3 aces + 3 non-heart 2's). Even so, I think you're right that -- given the small pot size -- the additional equity I got from cleaning up the ace out did not justify the raise.

[ QUOTE ]
SB is an idiot for not taking more of your money.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I think he's an idiot for calling from the SB with T4o. But you're right, too. While he was lucky to flop such a strong hand playing crap, I was lucky he played the hand so passively.

SoCalPat · #6 05-07-2004, 04:31 PM

Hand 1: You can play Axs from any position for one bet at these levels, those that recommend against it are playing too tightly, IMO. But why the turn raise? You shut out nearly the entire field. You want people calling one bet with their gutshots and middle pairs and having them improve (they won't call two cold with those hands), while hopefully you improve as well. Horrible play.

To your argument about "cleaning up your ace outs", one of your ace outs is no good anyway, as it puts a flush on the board. You've got seven clean outs to the nuts (one of which gives you the stone cold nutsies), two others that likely are clean (the 8 and 9), while you run into kicker problems with your two ace outs. Call this puppy next time.

Hand 2: You're justified in making a crying call on the river, given the size of the pot. I would've played it likewise, even though, as it turned out, you were behind all the way.

Hand 3: There's too many players still sticking around to keep me from fearing the flush. You have to slow down here. With a smaller field, not fearing the flush is more permissible, but not with this Kentucky Derby-size field.

Hand 4: I think it's a subconscious rule of thumb of mine never to bet the river when the middle pair on the flop pairs up. I don't think there's anything to gain by betting out here. If an opponent has a T, you will be raised. If he doesn't have at least a J, it's highly unlikely that he'll now call. SB's an idiot for not popping you on the turn, IMO, but he still got the extra bet out of you that he was aiming for.

MortalNuts · #7 05-07-2004, 07:57 PM

Hi dana --

I mostly agree with what everyone else has said about the other hands.

but in hand 3, I think you should definitely consider just calling the flop, and raising the turn if any non-spade falls. the pot is huge, and you are against many players who have already committed to the pot on a draw-y board.

(I'd probably be even more inclined to make this play if the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] were instead the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].)

just my 2c.

cheers,

mn

asdf1234 · #8 05-07-2004, 08:14 PM

Hand 1: I don't think cleaning up your ace outs is a good reason to raise in such a small pot. You've got 12 clean outs, and possibly 15. You're still going to miss more often than you hit, so calling is the play.

Hand 2: I don't know if I would raise the flop. You're not cutting anybody's odds in a pot this huge. Waiting til the turn is a viable option, as long as a truly awful card doesn't come off (like A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]). There was just a good thread on this type of situation in the SS forum, a JJ hand played by bisonbison. You should read it.

Hand 3: I think you played it well. I don't know if I could bring myself to fold the river in a pot this huge for one bet either. You almost never have to be correct to call here, but then again, you were 3 bet on the turn, and the last spade didn't scare him...

Hand 4: Fine, but I don't think I'd raise 2 players with only QJo.