Overpair to flop

[sammiK7os]

This is a general question but its based on a hand that I played earlier today:-

1st level of a Party Poker $30 tournament, early position player makes a minimim raise (15 to 30) I am holding KK and make it 90 to go. He calls everyone else folds, Flop comes Q high he checks to me I bet the pot he then reraises all in and I call. He has Q9os for top 2 pair and he wins.

Now my question is - is there any way you other players are getting away from this hand? I have been reading middle limit holdem by Ciaffome and Brier and I think this might be a case where they would say fold if this was a limit cash game but at the moment there is now way I can get myself away from a hand like this, does anyone else play it differently.

Now dont get me wrong my thinking is the guy played terrible preflop and got lucky after the flop, I am not looking for sympathy - just if anyone would play it differently and what sort of hand they would put him on.

All opinions appreciated.

[t_perkin]

Mostly that is just fine.

Although he could of course have made trips (esp with the 9).

but this is probably outweighed at the 30+3 level by the number of times he has AQ, QK, JJ etc.

Not particularly relevant to this hand but: Often in the first level when you really have no read on people I will make a bigger raise PF with AA or KK if there is any action at all in front (T120 in this case), but this is far from essential.

Tim

[Al_Capone_Junior]

You played fine. Perhaps raise more preflop tho, they will usually call you anyway once they have raised, no matter how trash their hand is, so you might as well charge them.

al

[37offsuit]

Some say push preflop with this. I don't, but I do bet a little harder. Like T150 to T200.

After the flop, he checked and you bet the size of the pot (by my calculation, that's about T280 or so. You've pot committed yourself here, if you're going to do that, why not just push in yourself? Now likely he will call with his top two pair, that's what he was waiting for anyway.

When he pushes, you've got to figure you're beat and not just beat like you would be if you had the AQ, but beat with only two outs left. He had every opportunity to put you on AA, KK, QQ, 99 or AQ with your preflop raise and your solid post flop bet. He's not betting top pair top kicker here, he's betting a set or two pair.

[PrayingMantis]

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You've pot committed yourself here, if you're going to do that, why not just push in yourself?

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Because a pot-sized bet might induce many opponets to push, with an inferior hand, while a push by you will often make them fold hands that you beat.

[ QUOTE ]
When he pushes, you've got to figure you're beat and not just beat like you would be if you had the AQ, but beat with only two outs left.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not correct, and a weak play. Folding KK to an all-in, on a Q high flop, early on, on this buy-in, against only ONE unkonwn opponent who havn't shown much strength PF, is a losing move, IMHO. You should figured you're ahead most of the time, unless you have a very strong read on the player.

Sorry for not agreeing with you again, but that's my opinion. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[mackthefork]

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Quote:
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When he pushes, you've got to figure you're beat and not just beat like you would be if you had the AQ, but beat with only two outs left.


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This is not correct, and a weak play. Folding KK to an all-in, on a Q high flop, early on, on this buy-in, against only ONE unkonwn opponent who havn't shown much strength PF, is a losing move, IMHO. You should figured you're ahead most of the time, unless you have a very strong read on the player.

[/ QUOTE ]


Absolutely, if you reckon him for 2 pair you have 5 outs on the turn and 8 outs on the river if he hasn't improved, it's only two outs if you think he caught a set, which IMO you can discount due to the size of his preflop raise.

Sounds like the players at $30 are nearly as bad as at $5, is this correct, are they a lot thinner on the ground up there.

Regards ML

[sammiK7os]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like the players at $30 are nearly as bad as at $5, is this correct, are they a lot thinner on the ground up there.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think the players are generally better at the $30+3 level, you probably get about 1 player that is really bad per table when as at the $5 and $10 levels its about 3 or more. However I play through the morning and afternoon here in the UK which is a very quite time at Party Poker. I am sure if I played at a busier time there would be far worse players.

Anyway about this hand, thanks for the replys. I usually raise about T100, or T120 in the first level with AA or KK but at this time I changed because I thought, the pot is 45 (sorry 50 got that wrong at the time) and I should try raising the pot as the only hand that is beating me is AA which I didn’t put him on. I put him on a very weak hand if I put him on anything. The reason for this is, I really don’t respect minimum raises from early position especially at this level of the tournament. I can see no reason why a good player would do this and have generally found that hands that people do this with are very poor. But it was like the 3rd hand so this was a generalisation and I knew it could be way off base.

Anyway sticking to this theory I decided to bet the pot, I didnt want him to fold you see, and as I had no read I thought that betting T120 might result in this. Was this wrong should I have tried to win the pot right there? Or should I have just hoped he would call a larger raise?

On the flop, I think that betting a pot sized amount was the right thing to do as I want a call from a pair of floped queens or less and I want all other drawing hands to fold. Is this wrong should my goal be to win the pot there and then?

But my real problem with my play is that after the guy check raised me all in, I didn’t give a second thought to what he had. I thought "pair of kings on a queen high flop - I have to call". In retrospect I think for the kind of player this guy is, if he had a pair of queens or less he would just of called and the check-raise shows he is stronger. There is always the danger that he is a maniac and has nothing but I think at this level of a tournament you have to trust your opponent’s a lot more (which I obliously did not do) until you can judge what type of player they are and have a reason to think they are bluffing, going all in with TPTK etc.

I do agree that I should have taken into account the fact my opponent would have put me on AA,KK, so therefore his move should have been respected more. Turns out that he probably didn’t put me on a hand at all but I should of thought of this at the time.

I think this is the type of situation where I am going to lose my chips every time but I hope that one day maybe I'll be able to fold it - I just can’t see how?