This Is Automatic..... Right?!?

Haupt_234 · #1 05-05-2004, 11:07 AM

No reads as I am doubled up in tables...

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players) 
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls, BB 3-bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero folds, SB calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players) 
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+2 folds, SB calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players) 
SB checks, BB bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB
Main Pot: 14.50 BB, between BB and SB.

Automatic fold?

Haupt_234

CMangano · #2 05-05-2004, 11:28 AM

I don't think so. I think enough times you'll get shown a Ks with a pair, say KsTx, or just a Ks with nothing else going for it. I would have called the 3 bet on the flop and used my position to see what he did on 4th street. Once he bets out on 4th street it would be a tough decision, but I would probably call him down.

Haupt_234 · #3 05-05-2004, 11:39 AM

When check-raising a raise on the flop, I can't fathom anyone not betting out the turn. So it seemed automatic to me that a tough decision would be faced on the turn, no matter what fell.

So either a spade would fall and I would fold, or a non-spade would fall and I would have a tough decision to call or not, with the risk of still having a spade fall on the river.

This was my thinking at the time, and as I have no reads on my opponents, don't I have to assume he is typical and would not check-reraise with a nut flush draw?

Haupt_234

sfer · #4 05-05-2004, 11:45 AM

That's where I release. The call/3-bet looks like a made flush who couldn't keep it in his pants, and you basically can't improve.

LetsRock · #5 05-05-2004, 12:05 PM

I don't think it's an automatic fold. You're basically closing the action (SB didn't raise your raise, so he's likely to call or fold if you call) and a c/r on this board feels a little like a steal.

I'm not saying you're definately ahead here, but you're not completely drawing dead and you may very well not be behind.

I'm thinking I'd like to peel off a turn card, and proceed with caution. You could even cap the flop and see how BB acts on the turn, if he checks you can take the free river card;if he bets out, you can fold pretty easily if you don't get any help.

Haupt_234 · #6 05-05-2004, 01:58 PM

Which cards are you hoping to peel off? One of the 2 queens that aren't spades, or one of the 2 remaining aces. Either way, I would be 80% sure that I am still behind even after catching the card, and believe I would need runner-runner in this situation.

Also, if I did call the 3-bet and a non-spaded Q or A hit, do I call down the inevitable bets from the check-reraiser or pop a raise at a certain time?

The way I look at it, I should only be in the hand if I can hit my 3-4 outs and raise the original check-raiser in confidence that I have the best hand. This didn't seem like the case in this situation, and there is no point in drawing to slim outs which still aren't likely to be the best...

Haupt_234

Kenshin · #7 05-05-2004, 04:43 PM

Why raise the flop at all? You will not push people of their flush draws here and you certainly do not want to put more money into the pot when possibly drawing near dead. I consider a call the correct play.

Kenshin

PS I think "to punish flush draws" a weak reason to raise on the flop. Punish draws on the turn if the 4th spade does not fall.

tipperdog · #8 05-05-2004, 05:12 PM

I agree that's its a clear fold on the flop. A call/reraise usually means one thing: "I was going to slowplay this monster, but it seems like I'm going to get action anyway, so WTF, I'll raise!" My guess is that BB held either a set (probably 7s) or a made flush. On the extreme off-chance he held another hand, it was probably a super-draw like 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

I don't think you can continue given the aggression shown on two fronts. Also, I agree that raising the flop was questionable...although in this case, the raise exposed the call-reraise, which turned out to be a crucial piece of information.