QQ according to HPFAP

[kenewbie]

The book says that after you raise QQ preflop and are 3-bet, if the flop comes down non-scary you should check/call your way to the showdown.

Isn't this awfully passive? Why not bet out to give your opponent a chance to fold AND a chance to tell you that you are behind. If you check/call all the way against KK/AA you will loose more money than if you fold to a raise on the flop.

I just dont get this.

Thoughts?

k

[NightWalker5]

I don't think that is in the loose games section of HPFAP.
In a loose games I would think it awfully passive and raise the flop. I think he's saying to check/call all the way if your in a $10-$20 game. If it is in the loose games section let me know. I can't recall that part.

-Night

[Nottom]

I do this when I get heads up against a player that I respect somewhat.

You can't just fold to a raise because it could easily be AK or JJ as well as AA/KK. Basically you want to get the most out of AK in a small pot. If you raise and they fold when they would have kept betting it unimproved you lose money. Against tighter players getting that extra bet out of AK while saving some bets against AA/KK usually make up for lost bets against TT/JJ.

[MortalNuts]

caveat: It's been a while since I looked at my copy of HPFAP, so I don't really remember the bit you're quoting.

That said, I'd assume that advice is geared towards games where people are reasonably likely to make correct bet/raise/fold decisions if you show aggression post-flop, plus they're reasonably likely to be aggressive, plus they're reasonably likely to have a good hand.

Look, if the flop comes down with rags, you don't WANT an opponent holding JJ to fold to a bet/raise from you: he's very rarely going to be getting proper odds to draw to a 2-outer. In a tough game, your opponent is somewhat likely to play correctly: that is, if you show much aggression post-flop in this situation, he may correctly fold worse hands but raise with better ones. Plus, he's also likely to be a tricksy little player, so his actions post-flop may not necessarily give you accurate information -- that is, if you bet and are raised, what does it tell you? Surely not that he has specifically AA or KK -- but if you 3-bet, he may correctly fold or AK or something, so that's no help. Here, you maybe just want to get to showdown because he can and will try to shove you off a better hand. Blah, blah, blah.

Anyway, imho the advice you're quoting is basically irrelevant in most micro games. For one thing, people will routinely call you with inferior hands, even if your actions scream "I have a big pocket pair!" For another, they will sometimes play completely irrationally -- we've all seen people 3-bet with K5o, and go to war on the flop with nothing. Because they play like this, you need to value bet a bunch more; plus, it's a lot less likely that you're going to give your opponent enough credit EVER to fold QQ against a rag board because you fear specifically AA/KK. People at these limits will go much too far with many hands, so their actions in response to your betting are seldom going to give you information in which you should be confident enough to make a big laydown. Here, you are going to showdown not because your opponent is tricky, but because he is dumb.

So yeah, don't play like that in the micros.

just my 2c.

cheers,

mn

[bernie]

I would raise alot of times behind your bet with only overcards. In fact, if you checked it to me, id bet it.

Dont be so quick to fold to a flop raise on a low, rag board. UNLESS you have a very, very good read on this player and his 3 bet standards are extremely narrow. Like, he wont 3 bet AK. There are players like this. But you have to confirm this to use it rather than just guessing and folding.

I also believe they explain why in that essay/section.

b

[kenewbie]

That all makes sense, thank you guys.

And no, that wasn't in the loose game section, I just had some trouble figuring out why it would ever be good.

k

[StellarWind]

There are a wide range of heads up situations where:

1. You are behind somewhat more often then you are ahead.
2. There is too much money in the pot to just walk away.
3. He will never lay down a hand that beats you.
4. There is no trustworthy way to learn whether you are behind.

Often the answer is just to quietly call down. This preserves your equity in the pot, minimizes the amount of extra money you have to put into a -EV situation, and avoids scaring him off when you are lucky enough to be way ahead.

This QQ example can fit into this category, depending on the details and who your opponent is.