Just a bad beat right?

Ed Miller · #1 04-08-2004, 03:41 PM

Oh, wait, he says: "A player who calls your bets or raises when he has flopped four to a flush is not making a mistake. However, if you check and let him draw at his flush for free you are giving him infinite odds on his draw...which is far better for him than your charging him a bet for his draw." WLLHE p. 86-87 (italics in original, bold added).

This passage is wrong because it implies that someone who flops a flush draw on the button should check if it is checked to him. That is usually not the case.

If he had said that about a GUTSHOT draw, or BOTTOM PAIR, then I wouldn't argue. But when he says it about a flush draw, he has it wrong.

Zetack · #2 04-08-2004, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, wait, he says: "A player who calls your bets or raises when he has flopped four to a flush is not making a mistake. However, if you check and let him draw at his flush for free you are giving him infinite odds on his draw...which is far better for him than your charging him a bet for his draw." WLLHE p. 86-87 (italics in original, bold added).

This passage is wrong because it implies that someone who flops a flush draw on the button should check if it is checked to him. That is usually not the case.

If he had said that about a GUTSHOT draw, or BOTTOM PAIR, then I wouldn't argue. But when he says it about a flush draw, he has it wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok.

Look I like his book. It gave me a very good foundation when I was starting out jumping from a computer program to playing for play money. So I both wonder about the criticism of his book and wish people would be explicit about it, because his were the first guidelines I learned, to the extent they're flawed I may have fundamental flaws deep in my basic assumptions abou the game.

In his defense, the section above is about when you hit very strong hand and not about playing the flush draw, and is actually in response to the complaint of some players that betting and raising won't get out the guy on the flush draw.

He does make it clear in the section on playing when you flop a flush draw that you should bet if checked to, and if you have the requisite number of opponents your only concern should be getting the maximum number of bets in the pot. So I personally never picked up on the implication you've found.

I do find his caveat, that if your flush draw isn't to the nuts, though, that you want to be calling bets and raises and not putting them in yourself too weak...although it does fit into his premium hand philosophy of low limit poker.

Geez, now I sound like an apologist for Lee Jones. Maybe its simply because, although I feel like my game has expanded since when I first started and his book was my guidebook, I'm not bright enough to pick out the problems in it for myself so it makes me feel dumb when people criticize it--particularly when they just criticize it in a general way.

--Zetack

jedi · #3 01-25-2005, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, wait, he says: "A player who calls your bets or raises when he has flopped four to a flush is not making a mistake. However, if you check and let him draw at his flush for free you are giving him infinite odds on his draw...which is far better for him than your charging him a bet for his draw." WLLHE p. 86-87 (italics in original, bold added).

This passage is wrong because it implies that someone who flops a flush draw on the button should check if it is checked to him. That is usually not the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

This thread was linked to from another, and I wanted to post a hand which I thought was interesting last night.

3/6 B&M casino. Players are mostly loose passive (with an exception or 3). The table is 9 handed.

Jedi is BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

There are 4 other limpers in the hand, plus the small blind. Button-2 is agressive, has fairly loose starting requirements. Button is fishy, will play anything that looks pretty and is pretty passive, though he'll gamble it up if everyone else is already.

(6 small bets)
Flop comes 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I have top pair, flush draw.

SB checks. I bet, 2 callers, Button-2 raises. Button calls, SB folds. I reraise, 2 cold-callers. Button-2 calls, Button now caps. All call.

(13 big bets now)

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet out, get 3 callers this time. (Button-2 and button)

(17 big bets)

River: T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet, 1 call. Button-2 calls, Button Raises. I re-raise. The other 2 fold and button calls me down.

I show my hand. Button shows J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for a lower flush. Button-2 shoots me a dirty look: "You were behind the whole way. I had A9."

Even if I knew what he had, did I play this poorly? I don't think I did. I built the pot with top pair, decent kicker (button-2 would raise with 9T in this spot) and a flush draw. While I might not have chosen to play this hand in early position, I didn't have much of a choice with the free look in the BB. I did what I could and caught 1 of my (as it turned out) 10 outs.

Greg J · #4 01-25-2005, 02:29 PM

Nice hand.

LethalRose · #5 01-27-2005, 02:40 AM

Any thoughts on Jedi's hand? I felt he played it fine.

TomBrooks · #6 04-15-2005, 06:24 PM

I think you played that correctly Jedi.

Here's a hand I played last night in which I had A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for the nut flush draw and some top pair chances. I pumped the flop and checked the turn with the intention of checkraising as I had picked up a gutshot there.

Had I not picked up the gutshot, I figure I would have needed all 3 callers to justify adding to the pot as I would be about a 3.5 to 1 dog, right? With the gutshot 2 callers looks +EV to me as I figure about 14 1/2 outs making me just over a 2 to 1 dog. A T on the river could give AK or K9 a higher straight though.

Along the lines of the Original Post, from the point of view of BB who had J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for a set, should he not have 3-bet the turn with the likely best hand at that time? He'd be giving the next two players 7 1/2 to 1 to call, good enough for OESDs, but not gutshots. Then again, if he did that he would run the risk of me capping, which I would do if he didn't fold both the other players. Should that matter to him, or should he reraise with the likely best hand at that time?

Party 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 raises, 3 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG raises, MP1 calls, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (18 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 21 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has Jc Jd (three of a kind, jacks).
UTG has Qh Ad (one pair, queens).
MP1 has 9d 9h (one pair, nines).
Outcome: BB wins 21 BB.