This got out of hand quickly (QTs vs limp-rr and limp-cap)

Glurfle · #1 04-07-2004, 06:18 AM

I've just sat down at the table. Table is averaging something huge like 13BB/pot. UTG+1 appears to be playing any 2 and playing them to the river. I've seen him call 2 bets with 32o and show down the nut low on the river. He's also called down 93o to chop when the board made a running straight. Lord only knows what he actually bets, though. No reads on the others in this hand. I recognize the button as maybe too loose but not insane - I expect that there's a good chance I can buy the button with my preflop raise.

On the turn, I wanted to get it HU with UTG+1 and planned to check behind on the river unless I hit a Q or T.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG caps, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (20.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (15.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

River: (19.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 23.25 BB
Main Pot: 23.25 BB, between UTG+1 and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (23.25 BB).

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 shows Kh Qs (one pair, queens).
Hero shows Td Qd (two pair, queens and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 23.25 BB.

SpaceAce · #2 04-07-2004, 07:00 AM

Instead of calling all those bets pre-flop and then raising every street, wouldn't it be easier to simply soak all your money in kerosene and set it on fire? Seriously, stop raising. Your hand is no good. Don't count on the river bailing you out every time. It's practically a miracle that you folded out all the people you did on the turn.

When you're playing against someone who calls to the river every hand with crap but now he's betting into you, raising every single street with top pair and a crummy kicker is not smart poker. You said ou don't know what he bets but when he calls your raise and bets into you again, he's probably got at least a Queen.

SpaceAce

sthief09 · #3 04-07-2004, 07:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Instead of calling all those bets pre-flop and then raising every street, wouldn't it be easier to simply soak all your money in kerosene and set it on fire? Seriously, stop raising. Your hand is no good. Don't count on the river bailing you out every time. It's practically a miracle that you folded out all the people you did on the turn.

When you're playing against someone who calls to the river every hand with crap but now he's betting into you, raising every single street with top pair and a crummy kicker is not smart poker. You said ou don't know what he bets but when he calls your raise and bets into you again, he's probably got at least a Queen.

SpaceAce

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect to SpaceAce, I disagree with just about every sentiment in this post

sthief09 · #4 04-07-2004, 08:03 AM

I don't know what you were thinking raising this hand pre-flop, but...

IMO, well-played on every street post-flop. the pot is an absolute MONSTER and if you aren't raising on every street you're not giving yourself the best chance to win on every street. if he 3-bet you at any point, you could slow down. but the stop and go does not indicate that you are far behind, if behind at all.

My only comment is that this is a VERY uncoordinated board. if there weren't 2 people to act behind you on the turn, I wouldn't have raised. MP1 isn't likely to have anything other than a Q or a PP, but raising the turn is mandatory in such a huge pot, as JJ is not unlikely at all here.

I'm one of the few people who generally equates a limp-reraise (especially 2) on Party Poker as a miniacal move when not coming EP. if UTG did it, I'd be worried. I've only seen a legitimate limp-reraise twice in my times at Party, and I've seen a lot of limp re-raising, especially recently. if you're just going to assume someone has AA or KK, you might as well not play your hand. it's generally a LAG move online, showing some sort of spite that YOU could possibly dare raise Mr. LAG's limp.

I really like how you played this

bernie · #5 04-07-2004, 10:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 appears to be playing any 2 and playing them to the river. I've seen him call 2 bets with 32o and show down the nut low on the river. He's also called down 93o to chop when the board made a running straight. Lord only knows what he actually bets, though

[/ QUOTE ]

You really can't figure out what type of hand this player bets? He's loose calling, not betting. Id be careful if he was in betting. Especially if he's still betting into a preflop raiser. He very likely has you beat.

I can see some justification with raising the turn to knock players out behind you, except it's obvious you're behind. So the value of this raise is debateable. It's a relatively safe board and you need to catch something to win.

So, how many bets would you go if the case Q hits the river?

b

Glurfle · #6 04-07-2004, 02:40 PM

I've only been at this table for 4 hands. My default assumption when I see someone playing any 2 and calling down things like the nut low is that when they bet, they have any piece of the board. With this type of player, I'm not surprised to see any pocket pair, any 1 pair hand, bizarre draws like gutshots...I get shown so many goofy things in situations like this that I don't think it's really that obvious that I'm behind. In fact, I think in this general case I'm ahead more often than I'm behind. I've had too many hands with AA/KK/whatever where I get to raise every street on a raggy board because Party 2/4 players love to believe every preflop raise means AK, so I generally won't stop raising just because an "any 2" player bets the turn.

That said, I'd wimp out and just call a 3-bet if the case Q hit on the river. I'd probably be more likely to cap the 10.

bernie · #7 04-07-2004, 08:25 PM

In your description, your main note on him was how he 'called' with a bunch of stuff. Nothing about his betting. Which i've found, in general, that these types of players have somewhat tighter raising standards. Especially when shown a little power.

Your 'any 2' referred to his calling, not betting.

But in seeing only 4 hands, give it a shot and blast away. I tend to play a little less aggressive this early as im clocking the players i dont know. I want to see and get an idea of their bet standards before i open up and really fire away.

But that said, the turn raise i may have done. If anything, as i think you stated, to knock some players out and get a free showdown unless i improve.

If a Q hits, and he bets again, im only calling. i'd need a ten to raise.

cheers

b

SpaceAce · #8 04-08-2004, 02:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Instead of calling all those bets pre-flop and then raising every street, wouldn't it be easier to simply soak all your money in kerosene and set it on fire? Seriously, stop raising. Your hand is no good. Don't count on the river bailing you out every time. It's practically a miracle that you folded out all the people you did on the turn.

When you're playing against someone who calls to the river every hand with crap but now he's betting into you, raising every single street with top pair and a crummy kicker is not smart poker. You said ou don't know what he bets but when he calls your raise and bets into you again, he's probably got at least a Queen.

SpaceAce

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect to SpaceAce, I disagree with just about every sentiment in this post

[/ QUOTE ]

Then exactly what would it take to convince you your hand was no good? Does he have to actually show you his cards? What about all the callers from the flop? Do you really expect to get rid of them on the turn? That was a mighty stroke of luck.

Edit: By the way, see some of the above posts about him _calling_ with garbage. That plays a large part in my thought process. He's been calling with all kinds of crap but now he's betting. There is a big difference between a caller and a bettor.

SpaceAce